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muvlon 6 days ago [-]
Yes there is tons of surprising and weird UB in C, but this article doesn't do a great job of showcasing it. It barely scratches the surface.
Here's a way weirder example:
volatile int x = 5;
printf("%d in hex is 0x%x.\n", x, x);
This is totally fine if x is just an int, but the volatile makes it UB. Why? 5.1.2.4.1 says any volatile access - including just reading it - is a side effect. 6.5.1.2 says that unsequenced side effects on the same scalar object (in this case, x) are UB. 6.5.3.3.8 tells us that the evaluations of function arguments are indeterminately sequenced w.r.t. each other.
So in common parlance, a "data race" is any concurrent accesses to the same object from different threads, at least one of which is a write. In C, we can have a data race on a single thread and without any writes!
thomashabets2 6 days ago [-]
Author here.
> It barely scratches the surface.
I agree. The point of the post is not to enumerate and explain the implications of all 283 uses of the word "undefined" in the standard. Nor enumerate all the things that are undefined by omission.
The point of the post is to say it's not possible to avoid them. Or at least, no human since the invention of C in 1972 has.
And if it's not succeeded for 54 years, "try harder", or "just never make a mistake", is at least not the solution.
The (one!) exploitable flaw found by Mythos in OpenBSD was an impressive endorsement of the OpenBSD developers, and yet as the post says, I pointed it at the simplest of their code and found a heap of UB.
Now, is it exploitable that `find` also reads the uninitialized auto variable `status` (UB) from a `waitpid(&status)` before checking if `waitpid()` returned error? (not reported) I can't imagine an architecture or compiler where it would be, no.
FTA:
> The following is not an attempt at enumerating all the UB in the world. It’s merely making the case that UB is everywhere, and if nobody can do it right, how is it even fair to blame the programmer? My point is that ALL nontrivial C and C++ code has UB.
wahern 6 days ago [-]
> Now, is it exploitable that `find` also reads the uninitialized auto variable `status` (UB) from a `waitpid(&status)` before checking if `waitpid()` returned error? (not reported) I can't imagine an architecture or compiler where it would be, no.
The only signal handler find installs is for SIGINFO, and it uses the SA_RESTART flag, so EINTR can be ruled out. The pid argument is definitely valid as you can't reach the above if it wasn't, and there's no other way for the child process to be reaped[1], so no ECHILD.
A check should probably be added in case the situation changes in the future, triggering spooky action at a distance, or were that code to be copy+pasted somewhere where the invariants didn't hold. But I think the current code in its current context is, strictly speaking, correct as-is.
[1] OpenBSD lacks the kernel features for such surprises that might theoretically be possible on Linux.
thomashabets2 5 days ago [-]
Indeed. That's why I didn't deem it worth reporting.
But in my code, I would have fixed for the reasons you mention. Sprinkle enough of these around, and some low percentage will in the future have its assumption invalidated.
BobbyTables2 5 days ago [-]
Couldn’t waitpid return EINTR if the (parent) process were stopped and then continued?
EINTR scares the crap out of me because nobody expects it!
wahern 5 days ago [-]
No. You only get EINTR when a signal handler fires and you didn't use the SA_RESTART flag with sigaction. If you don't install any signal handlers, or you use SA_RESTART on all handlers, or you've blocked/masked all signals (or at least the ones with handlers), you won't get EINTR.
When writing library code, it's important to consider EINTR because you can't know about signal dispositions. Though, the common practice of looping on EINTR kind of defeats the purpose.
muvlon 6 days ago [-]
Fair enough!
> And if it's not succeeded for 54 years, "try harder", or "just never make a mistake", is at least not the solution.
And I 100% agree. UB is way overused by these standards for how dangerous it is, and as a consequence using C (and C++) for anything nontrivial amounts to navigating a minefield.
webstrand 6 days ago [-]
I think as compilers got smarter, UB changed somewhat in meaning. Originally the compilers didn't perform such complex analysis, and while invoking UB could break your program, it would still do something reasonable.
marcosdumay 6 days ago [-]
Yes, but compilers got smart enough for it to be a problem around 30 years ago, and we are still arguing about what to do.
pjmlp 6 days ago [-]
You see a reasoning here, basically when all those C compiler benchmarks started, vendors moved from what Frank Allen described, to anything goes to win SPEC something benchmarks.
"Oh, it was quite a while ago. I kind of stopped when C came out. That was a big blow. We were making so much good progress on optimizations and transformations. We were getting rid of just one nice problem after another. When C came out, at one of the SIGPLAN compiler conferences, there was a debate between Steve Johnson from Bell Labs, who was supporting C, and one of our people, Bill Harrison, who was working on a project that I had at that time supporting automatic optimization...The nubbin of the debate was Steve's defense of not having to build optimizers anymore because the programmer would take care of it. That it was really a programmer's issue.... Seibel: Do you think C is a reasonable language if they had restricted its use to operating-system kernels? Allen: Oh, yeah. That would have been fine. And, in fact, you need to have something like that, something where experts can really fine-tune without big bottlenecks because those are key problems to solve. By 1960, we had a long list of amazing languages: Lisp, APL, Fortran, COBOL, Algol 60. These are higher-level than C. We have seriously regressed, since C developed. C has destroyed our ability to advance the state of the art in automatic optimization, automatic parallelization, automatic mapping of a high-level language to the machine. This is one of the reasons compilers are ... basically not taught much anymore in the colleges and universities."
-- Fran Allen interview, Excerpted from: Peter Seibel. Coders at Work: Reflections on the Craft of Programming
saagarjha 6 days ago [-]
What should the behavior above be defined to do?
tsukikage 6 days ago [-]
“Implementation defined behaviour”: compiler author chooses, and documents the choice.
A lot of UB should be implementation defined behaviour instead; this would much better match programmers’ intuitions as they reason about their code - you can even see it in the comments of this post: it’s always things like “this hardware supports / doesn’t support unaligned accesses”, it’s never nasal demons.
tardedmeme 6 days ago [-]
I told someone at a conference that UB actually means "implementation-defined, no documentation required". He started to refute me and then stopped.
VorpalWay 6 days ago [-]
That isn't true, for UB the compiler is allowed to assume the UB can never happen. For example if you dereference a pointer and only after check if it is NULL, the compiler can remove the NULL check, since it is clearly impossible (nevermind that you might be on a microcontroller where NULL is a valid address).
The fallout of this are quite large!
If behaviour is implementation defined the compiler has to stick to one consistent behaviour. No such need for UB, you can get different behaviour bu changing unrelated code, by changing between debug and release or just because of what garbage happened to be on the stack.
Since the compiler is allowed to assume the UB doesn't happen it will also sometimes look like the compiler miscompiled your code elsewhere, but what actually happened was some inlining followed by extrapolating "this can never happen".
UB is often surprising: I have seen unaligned loads crash on x86 due to it bring UB in C (even though x86 is generally fine with it). But once a newer compiler decided that it was fine to vectorise that code (since it clearly aligned) the CPU was no longer happy with it.
thomashabets2 5 days ago [-]
I think parent commenter made a joke. UB can be seen as "implementation defines this to reformat your hard drive. No we don't document it".
That is, the compiler de facto defines what happens when you compile UB code.
So you're not wrong, but I think you missed the sarcastic spin of parent.
Maxatar 5 days ago [-]
>That is, the compiler de facto defines what happens when you compile UB code.
That is not what undefined behavior is though, that is unspecified behavior.
The entire point of undefined behavior is to cover the cases where the compiler can't define the semantics of your program either because doing so is genuinely not possible, or is incredibly onerous to deduce, or would require introducing runtime checks whose performance cost is at odds with C and C++'s predominant use cases.
thomashabets2 5 days ago [-]
Sorry, by "de facto defines" I meant that it factually does something, even if that "something" is "segfault the compiler at build time".
That "de facto" did some heavy lifting.
marcosdumay 6 days ago [-]
Except that UB doesn't mean that. UB means "the developer must never write this".
munch117 6 days ago [-]
Both are wrong. It means "this standard does not constrain the behaviour of code that does this".
It's entirely legal for implementations to have predictable behaviour, documented or not, for code that is undefined by the standard. In their quest for maxxing benchmark performance they generally choose not to, but there's really nothing in any standard that stops you from making an implementation that prioritises safety.
tardedmeme 6 days ago [-]
Every implementation so far has predictable behavior in all cases. Sometimes the rules for predicting it are very obscure. But it's all fully defined within the compiler's binary code. And none of them link to nasal portals.
AlotOfReading 6 days ago [-]
How do you propose to predict the behavior of a true race condition with only the binary, faithfully translated by the compiler?
Moreover, this is at best an incredibly pedantic point, not something that changes how programmers need to approach UB. You can't review the source code of a compiler that hasn't been written yet.
munch117 5 days ago [-]
I didn't suggest that implementations should entirely eliminate every form of UB. There is plenty of middle ground. For example, you could easily limit the consequences of integer overflow by specifying or partially specifying overflow behaviour, with very little runtime cost.
I'm not suggesting you change how you write code, but with a better implementation the code that you do write - that lives in the real world where mistakes are made - might work better. How is that being pedantic?
An interesting case where compiler writers did something like that is casting via union members, but I'm running out of time, so we can talk about that another day.
tardedmeme 5 days ago [-]
It's fully defined by your CPU's silicon masks and your compiler's binary code that one of several things will happen.
tsukikage 5 days ago [-]
Turns out that when you're implementing network applications, the set of things that could happen also depends on what the script kiddie on the other side of the globe feels like this morning.
Some would prefer less excitement than this.
C code should be more predictable and easier to reason about than using a macro assembler. To the extent it is not, the language has failed.
PaulRobinson 3 days ago [-]
Given that it sits at the heart of the network stack, kernel and device drivers for every major operating system, is in many, many embedded devices in the World around us, and is responsible for making decent chunk of the global economy keep moving, that’s quite a failure case.
Perhaps some professional programmers know how to write secure software in a language with undefined behaviour. Maybe we should think about that more rather than just writing off an obviously huge success as a failure?
Filligree 6 days ago [-]
Print x twice. Not all “side effects” care about order.
Better yet, define an order for parameter evaluation.
HelloNurse 5 days ago [-]
There is an easy way to take control: read the volatile variable only once.
volatile int x = 5;
...
int y=x;
printf("%d in hex is 0x%x.\n", y, y);
poppadom1982 6 days ago [-]
You're missing the point. Volatile forces two loads of a value that may have changed in the middle. So the value of "x" may depend on the time/order of load.
AnimalMuppet 6 days ago [-]
Which is, if I understand correctly, the entire point of volatile. Don't use it if you don't want that behavior.
And in fact, in the example given, if there is something (another thread or whatever) that can change the value of x, then you don't know what either number will be. Well, in that circumstance, without volatile, it may print the same number both times, but you still don't know what the number will be (unless the read gets optimized away entirely).
chuckadams 6 days ago [-]
If that behavior is the entire point, then I think the bigger point is that the spec should reflect that and not call it undefined.
voakbasda 6 days ago [-]
I suspect that many undefined behaviors reflect the inability of the standard committee to come to a consensus on the nuances involved. “Punt to the implementers” is a way to allow every tool vendor to select their own expected behavior in those cases.
chowells 6 days ago [-]
You seem to be operating under the assumption "undefined behavior" means "the compiler authors can decide what to do." That's not what it means. It means "any program that causes this behavior to be triggered is not a valid C program, the programmer knows this and did not submit an invalid program, and the programmer explicitly prevented this from happening elsewhere in ways automated analysis cannot detect. Proceed with compilation knowing this branch is impossible."
The spelling for compiler authors getting to choose a behavior is "implementation defined", as the other comment mentions.
tardedmeme 5 days ago [-]
It means the C standard does not specify what the program does. Other documents may still specify what the program does. And the program definitely still does something, whether specified or not.
chowells 5 days ago [-]
> And the program definitely still does something, whether specified or not.
It is absolutely critical that people programming in C understand what real compilers in the real world do.
tardedmeme 4 days ago [-]
Are you saying the programs in the blog post don't do things? I think they do things. The whole blog post is talking about which things they do.
MarkusQ 6 days ago [-]
Then it should be "implementation defined" rather than "undefined".
hmry 6 days ago [-]
Why is that missing the point? Loading it twice, possibly with different values, is the intended behavior. It's only undefined because the C spec doesn't specify the order of the loads (unlike most other languages which have a perfectly well-defined order for side effects in a single expression).
rowanG077 6 days ago [-]
What you are describing is implementation defined behavior. Using that is perfectly safe and reasonable. Undefined means this programs is malformed.
hmry 6 days ago [-]
No I'm just repeating what the original comment said, which is that it's explicitly UB:
"5.1.2.4.1 says any volatile access - including just reading it - is a side effect. 6.5.1.2 says that unsequenced side effects on the same scalar object (in this case, x) are UB. 6.5.3.3.8 tells us that the evaluations of function arguments are indeterminately sequenced w.r.t. each other."
If function arguments were sequenced with respect to each other, it wouldn't be a problem.
But actually, maybe the original comment is wrong. Presumably "indeterminately sequenced" and "unsequenced" mean different things, although I don't have a copy of the standard at hand to check.
echoangle 6 days ago [-]
Couldn’t you just define that function arguments are evaluated left to right?
Or just throw an error.
jfoks 6 days ago [-]
Why? Just for this edge case? It could be faster and/or allow smaller code size to allow this to be undefined.
Undefined is also different from "depends on the compiler", because which behavior is chosen can even depend on the circumstances, whatever code appears before and/or after it.
That said, UB in code, such as this example of ordering of reads of volatile parameters being undefined, does not automatically mean that code that uses it is bad. It may very well be that the function being called doesn't misbehave either way.
echoangle 6 days ago [-]
That’s the point of the whole article. It’s not worth the speed gain to have a language that nobody can safely use because you can’t really prevent UB when you write it.
> It may very well be that the function being called doesn't misbehave either way.
The function being good or bad has nothing to do with the UB. The UB occurs before the function is called.
saagarjha 6 days ago [-]
I meant reading the uninitialized variable
muvlon 6 days ago [-]
There is no uninitialized variable, I explicitly initialized it to 5.
And yes indeed, C could do what Rust does and define the order of evaluation for function arguments.
If the argument expressions are indeed side-effect-less, the compiler can always make use of the "as-if" rule and legally reorder the computation anyway, for example to alleviate register pressure.
lll-o-lll 6 days ago [-]
HCF
saagarjha 6 days ago [-]
I have good news about what UB allows
JadeNB 6 days ago [-]
What is that?
FabHK 6 days ago [-]
A fictitious assembly instruction (and pretty good TV series).
It’s harder depending on the language, which is clearly the point.
stellamariesays 6 days ago [-]
[flagged]
nextaccountic 5 days ago [-]
> Or at least, no human since the invention of C in 1972 has.
No human without proper tools maybe, but what about seL4? It goes beyond proving the code is UB-free and actually formally verifies the code works as intended. And the code is written in C. (the proofs of course aren't)
The proof is interesting because it goes beyond just proving the C code is correct. For some platforms, they compile the code with an ordinary compiler, and verify that the machine code does what the C code is supposed to do. (that's because just writing correct C code doesn't help you if you trigger a compiler bug)
This works even if the compiler (in this case, GCC) isn't verified - they verify a specific output of the compiler, not that the compiler always generates machine code correctly.
lelanthran 6 days ago [-]
> The point of the post is to say it's not possible to avoid them. Or at least, no human since the invention of C in 1972 has.
What are you talking about? UB was coined only in the first C standard, in 1989. Prior to that there was no "If you do this, anything can happen". It was "If you do this, that will happen".
thomashabets2 5 days ago [-]
> UB was coined only in the first C standard, in 1989
Pre 1989, when C did not have a standard, was the behavior unspecified or undefined? That is, of course, a trick question. Because in this context the very definitions of the words come from the standard itself.
Before a language gets a specification, is the de facto specification the five words "you know what I mean"?
The very definition of "UB" in C later became "[…] this document imposes no requirements". Is that not the same thing as "there is to specification (yet)"?
It sounds very zen, but "a non existing specification imposes no requirements".
But I don't think it's meaningful to argue the semantic difference before the (in-context) existence of the words "undefined" vs "unspecified".
> Prior to that there was no "If you do this, anything can happen".
Of course it was. You relied on "common sense".
> It was "If you do this, that will happen".
Haha, of course it wasn't. Before a specification there is neither a definition of "this" nor "that".
Unless you mean ye olde "the compiler implementation is the specification". In which case we'll get dragged into "what even is a language" and "what is the sound of one hand clapping?".
Or, alternatively, it's as true then as it is today. If you go by "GCC x.y.z on platform Z kernel Y, (etc…) is the specification" then there is no UB.
professoretc 6 days ago [-]
More like, "if you do this, what happens depends on your particular combination of hardware, operating system, and compiler. Don't ask us."
nickez 6 days ago [-]
No, that would be implementation defined.
professoretc 6 days ago [-]
The post I was replying to said,
> UB was coined only in the first C standard, in 1989. Prior to that there was no "If you do this, anything can happen".
I.e., the context is, before UB existed as a concept, how would these things be categorized. And I was trying to offer the correction that, before UB existed, it wasn't "all behavior is defined" but rather many behaviors depend on your particular local environment. While that may technically be implementation defined, the current standard requires that implementation defined be documented, and UB-like edge cases were most definitely not documented anywhere consistently in the old days!
tekne 6 days ago [-]
No, that's actually UB. The important bit here is "compiler defined" -- UB means the compiler is allowed to assume it never happens while compiling.
Consider, for example, an implementation defined function f() -- which can also diverge/crash horribly, etc.
If I write
if p {
print("p is true")
} else {
g()
}
if p {
f()
}
Then either we:
- print p is true and execute f
- do nothing
This is true regardless of if f immediately crashes the computer, nasal demons, whatever -- that's implementation defined.
UB means f may never happen.
And that means the compiler may optimize this to just:
g()
Notice the difference here -- the print never happens!, and g always happens.
You can see why this is concerning when you write code like
if dry_run {
print("would run rm -rf /")
} else {
run("rm -rf /")
}
if dry_run {
// oops: some_debug_string is NULL and will segfault!
print(some_debug_string);
}
tyg13 6 days ago [-]
I see what you're going for, but I don't see how your example is UB. If `p` is a pointer, and, after your `if (p)` check, `p` is dereferenced unconditionally, then yes, your check for `p == NULL` could be removed, and the code under the `if` would be removed as well. But the example you've constructed is not UB.
Quekid5 5 days ago [-]
You misunderstood their example, I think.
If doesn't matter what 'p' is in their example. The point is: if 'f' is undefined behavior (rather than just impl-defined), then the optimizer concludes that the "if p { f() }" can never happen... which means that we're allowed to assume that 'if p { ... } else { ... }' (in the first part of the example) will always take the else branch. The compiler will optimize accordingly and just always call g() unconditionally.
saghm 6 days ago [-]
> if nobody can do it right, how is it even fair to blame the programmer? My point is that ALL
It's fair to blame the programmer for the choice of programming in a language like this, if it was in fact their choice. As you've so eloquently put, choosing those languages is essentially equivalent to choosing UB, so starting a new project with one of them is 100% blameworthy when the UB is inevitably found.
thomashabets2 5 days ago [-]
Not all projects are green field. But sure, new modules can be written in other languages. And C is, as cross-language barriers go, fairly easy to interface with.
tialaramex 6 days ago [-]
Volatile is a type system hack. They should have done a more principled fix, and certainly modern languages should not act as though "C did it" makes it a good idea.
The reason for the hack is that very early C compilers just always spill, so you can write MMIO driver code by setting a pointer to point at the MMIO hardware and it actually works because every time you change x the CPU instruction performs a memory write.
Once C compilers got some basic optimisations that obvious "clever" trick stops working because the compiler can see that we're just modifying x over, and over and over, and so it doesn't spill x from a register and the driver doesn't work properly. C's "volatile" keyword is a hack saying "OK compiler, forget that optimisation" which was presumably a few minutes work to implement, whereas the correct fix, providing MMIO intrinsics in the associated library, was a lot of work.
Why should you want intrinsics here? Intrinsics let you actually spell out what's possible and what isn't. On some targets we can actually do a 1-byte 2-byte and 4-byte write, those are distinct operations and the hardware knows, so e.g. maybe some device expects a 4-byte RGBA write and so if you emit four 1-byte writes that's very confusing and maybe it doesn't work, don't do that. On some targets bit-level writes are available, you can say OK, MMIO write to bit 4 of address 0x1234 and it will write a single bit. If you only have volatile there's no way to know what happens or what it means.
HarHarVeryFunny 6 days ago [-]
I agree that marking the read/write as special rather than the variable itself would be nice, although it would also be nice if C/C++ was more consistent in the way things like this are done. Maybe given std::atomic and std::mutex as template/library features, supported by compiler intrinsics, it would be nice to have "volatile" supported in a similar way.
As a nit pick, I don't think this is correct use of "spill". Register spilling refers to when a compiler's code generator runs out of registers and needs to store variables in memory instead. In the MMIO case you are reading/writing via a pointer, so this is unrelated to registers and spilling behavior.
tialaramex 6 days ago [-]
That's fair that "spill" probably isn't quite the right word.
MobiusHorizons 6 days ago [-]
By MMIO semantics do you mean explicit load and store instructions? I’ve never felt that pointer reads or writes were lacking descriptiveness here. I would argue the only surprising thing is that they might be optimized out (which is what volatile prevents).
Volatile on a non pointer value is not for MMIO, though, that’s typically for concurrency like with interrupts.
tialaramex 6 days ago [-]
> I’ve never felt that pointer reads or writes were lacking descriptiveness here. I would argue the only surprising thing is that they might be optimized out
The C and C++ languages would be very slow by modern standards if you insist that reading or writing via a pointer must result in immediate fetches or stores to memory.
> Volatile on a non pointer value is not for MMIO, though, that’s typically for concurrency like with interrupts.
You're holding it wrong. Perhaps you've been holding it wrong for so long and so confidently that you've distorted the world around you -- indeed on MSVC on x86 or x86-64 that actually happened -- but, you're still holding it wrong.
MobiusHorizons 5 days ago [-]
> You're holding it wrong. Perhaps you've been holding it wrong for so long and so confidently that you've distorted the world around you -- indeed on MSVC on x86 or x86-64 that actually happened -- but, you're still holding it wrong.
Please explain. How would you make the variable backed by a hardware register region? Is this using some sort of linker trick to change where the value lives in memory?
tialaramex 5 days ago [-]
You said it was for concurrency. The feature you want for that in C (and most languages suitable for this problem) is atomic memory ordering, not the volatile type qualifier.
Microsoft's platform was x86 only for years, and because Intel's design pays for a lot more memory ordering by default than most, on Microsoft's platforms just "volatile" would kinda work even though it was the wrong thing, so Microsoft explicitly grandfathered this for x86 and x86-64 only, you are guaranteed the Acquire-Release ordering even though you didn't ask for it with your volatile type qualifier.
If you were actually thinking of POSIX signals or something similar then yeah, the POSIX requirements say volatile will work, seems like a bad idea to me, but your compiler and other tools are likely also built for POSIX so they've read the same documentation.
rcxdude 6 days ago [-]
Yeah, it's also cleaner to be able to mark particular reads and writes as having side effects as opposed to having it be a property of the variable.
tardedmeme 6 days ago [-]
Thr Linux kernel uses READ_ONCE and WEITE_ONCE which look like actual function calls which is very sensible.
saagarjha 6 days ago [-]
> The reason for the hack is that very early C compilers just always spill, so you can write MMIO driver code by setting a pointer to point at the MMIO hardware and it actually works because every time you change x the CPU instruction performs a memory write.
Source?
pjc50 6 days ago [-]
This is one of those "everyone doing this kind of work knows" that's rather hard to source, but: this is basically the point of volatile. Especially for reads rather than writes, where you may want to read some location that is being written into by a different piece of hardware.
Yeah. I could have sworn that I've read somewhere an anecdote from the Bell Labs era in which this comes up, but I can't find it and might be misremembering. The whole volatile keyword doesn't exist in K&R C as released, there are no "type qualifiers" at all in that language, both volatile and const are introduced in C89.
Duff's famous Device, often misunderstood as some insight about memory copying or something silly, was an MMIO hack, it doesn't look like an MMIO hack to us because it doesn't say volatile, but that's because Duff's compiler did not have that keyword, the reason Duff doesn't change the destination pointer is that it's pointing at hardware and the hardware isn't going anywhere, writing different bytes to the same address is I/O.
pjmlp 5 days ago [-]
No idea about volatile, but I do remember function prototypes and const came as influence from C++, well CFront.
skillina 6 days ago [-]
Source for what? The volatile keyword is explicitly telling the compiler "don't optimize read/write to this memory location". That's the whole point. Its use for manipulating hardware registers is covered in any intro embedded systems course. I don't know the history of C compilers but it would seem reasonable to assume that compilers started out plainly translating the C to machine code. Optimization would have happened later as the compilers became more mature.
Source for "compilers basically always did volatile since everything was always spilled".
pron 6 days ago [-]
> In C, we can have a data race on a single thread and without any writes!
You need to distinguish between a UB and a race, and I think that's something that discussions of UB miss. Take any C program and compile it. Then disassemble it. You end up with an Assembly program that doesn't have any UB, because Assembly doesn't have UB.
UB is a property of a source program, not the executable. It means that the spec for the language in which the source is written doesn't assign it any meaning. But the executable that's the result of compiling the program does have a meaning assigned to it by the machine's spec, as machine code doesn't have UB.
A race is a property of the behaviour of a program. So it's true to say that your C program has UB, but the executable won't actually have a race. Of course, a C compiler can compile a program with UB in any way it likes so it's possible it will introduce a race, but if it chooses to compile the program in a way that doesn't introduces another thread, then there won't be a race.
redox99 6 days ago [-]
> because Assembly doesn't have UB
To be pedantic, old hardware like 6502 family chips (Commodore 64, Apple II, etc) had illegal instructions which were often used by programmers, but it was completely up to the chip to do whatever it wanted with those like with UB.
zahlman 6 days ago [-]
> illegal instructions... were often used by programmers
Intentionally, with an expected effect? I'd need a citation for that.
boomlinde 5 days ago [-]
Yes, many of those are perfectly stable. For example, the 6502 has an undocumented instruction commonly known as "LAX" which loads both the A and X registers at the same time in a predictable manner in most addressing modes, in the same time and space it would otherwise take to load either of those registers on their own.
The benefits of being able to do stuff like this when you need to conserve resources are obvious, and common idioms have formed around their use. Check out https://csdb.dk/release/?id=198357
Some instructions were very useful and they were simply discovered by programmers who tried out what each instruction did. People did not necessarily have access to documentation those days!
So any instruction or hardware feature would get used, whether it's "officially" documented or not.
wolrah 5 days ago [-]
> You end up with an Assembly program that doesn't have any UB, because Assembly doesn't have UB.
I guess that's true if you think of assembly as a more readable form of machine code, but from a practical sense I'd argue that assembly inherits the undefined behaviors of the architecture it represents and the implementations of that architecture it actually builds for.
IIRC the OG Xbox security was broken partially as a result of undefined behaviors in x86 where the AMD CPUs that were used in early development would crash or throw an error or something when execution reached the end of the memory space but the Intel CPU they switched to instead just rolled over and kept executing from 0.
muvlon 6 days ago [-]
I specifically said data race, which is a known term of art and a type of language-level UB. It is separate from the races you're thinking about. Just like signed integer overflow or use-after-free, the compiler is allowed to assume data races never happen.
pjmlp 6 days ago [-]
The problem is that in the quest to win benchmark games, compilers started to take advantage of UB for all kinds of possible optimizations, which is almost as deterministic as LLM generated code, across compiler version updates.
skydhash 6 days ago [-]
Soooo… Pay attention to updates changelog?
AlotOfReading 6 days ago [-]
This isn't an answer. UB is not only code dependent, but in many cases value-dependent as well. Changing anything about a program has the potential to cause UB anywhere in the code graph affected. So even the smallest possible change requires you to fully understand that entire graph, as well as the entire compiler history and how it interacts with your program. Remember, UB isn't diagnostic and runtime sanitizers don't catch everything, nor does exhaustive testing and static analysis.
pjmlp 6 days ago [-]
If only those changes were all listed there...
simonask 6 days ago [-]
I think the article's point is that you don't actually have to get weird at all to run into UB.
Lots of people mistakenly think that C and C++ are "really flexible" because they let you do "what you want". The truth of the matter is that almost every fancy, powerful thing you think you can do is an absolute minefield of UB.
kzrdude 6 days ago [-]
My go-to example of "UB is everywhere" is this one:
int increment(int x) {
return x + 1;
}
Which is UB for certain values of x.
CodeArtisan 6 days ago [-]
C23 removed the whole stuff about indeterminate value and trap representation. Underflow/overflow being silent or not is implementation defined.
saagarjha 6 days ago [-]
Signed overflow is just undefined.
jstimpfle 5 days ago [-]
TBF that is the same as saying "signed overflow is UB".
kzrdude 5 days ago [-]
yes but it is a 'picture' that makes you think about it in a different way.
saghm 6 days ago [-]
I've long said that the value a programming language offers is as much about what it doesn't allow as what it does allow. Efficiency aside, most useful programs could be written in most languages, but there are an infinite number of programs you could write that aren't particularly useful. Ruling out the programs you might accidentally write that resemble the one you intended is a pretty useful feature of a language, and it's a metric that C and C++ rate quite poorly on IMO.
jstimpfle 6 days ago [-]
I would agree that C is "really flexible", but I would say it's primarily flexible because it lets you cast say from a void pointer to a typed pointer without requiring much boilerplate. It's also flexible because it lets you control memory layout and resource management patterns quite closely.
If you want to be standards correct, yes you have to know the standard well. True. And you can always slip, and learn another gotcha. Also true. But it's still extremely flexible.
crote 6 days ago [-]
The problem is that a lot of the flexibility introduced by UB doesn't serve the developer.
Take signed integer overflow, for example. Making it UB might've made sense in the 1970s when PDP-1 owners would've started a fight over having to do an expensive check on every single addition. But it's 2026 now. Everyone settled on two's complement, and with speculative execution the check is basically free anyways. Leaving it UB serves no practical purpose, other than letting the compiler developer skip having to add a check for obscure weird legacy architectures. Literally all it does is serve as a footgun allowing over-eager optimizations to blow up your program.
Although often a source of bugs, C's low-level memory management is indeed a great source of flexibility with lots of useful applications. It's all the other weird little UB things which are the problem. As the article title already states: writing C means you are constantly making use of UB without even realizing it - and that's a problem.
ablob 6 days ago [-]
If we're talking two's complement it's not undefined that is right.
Having to emit checks though, that is where I beg to differ.
A check is only useful if you want to actually change the behavior when it happens, otherwise it is useless.
Furthermore, it might be "essentially free" from a branch prediction point, but low and behold caches exist.
You would pollute both the instruction cache with those instructions _and_ the branch prediction cache.
From this it doesn't follow at all, that there is no cost.
In the end small things do add up, and if you're adding many little things "because it doesn't cost much nowadays" you will end up with slow software and not have one specific bottleneck to look at.
I do agree that having the option for checked operations is nice (see C#), but I have needed this behavior (branching on overflow) exactly once so far.
Xirdus 6 days ago [-]
> A check is only useful if you want to actually change the behavior when it happens, otherwise it is useless.
You almost always want to change the behavior to erroring out on overflow. The few cases where overflow really is intended and fine can be handled by explicit opt-out.
And I refuse to buy the argument that "small things add up" in the world where we do string building and parsing every few microseconds. Checked math will have unnoticable impact compared to all the other things we do, in almost every type of program.
jstimpfle 6 days ago [-]
This string manipulation stuff is very common, and that's why in 2026, an age where science fiction has become a reality, many things are still absurdly slow. Exactly because of such sloppiness, which does accumulate in many cases, and when one least expected it.
Xirdus 5 days ago [-]
100% agreed on the sloppiness. But overflow checking is not sloppiness. It's the opposite of sloppiness. Unchecked math is sloppiness, allowing overflows to happen silently and uncontrollably is sloppiness. It just so happens this kind of sloppiness makes code faster, unlike other kinds of sloppines that make code slower. Not doing necessary safety checks is faster than doing these necessary checks, but it doesn't make these checks any less necessary. Not validating user input also makes code faster, and is also sloppy.
saagarjha 6 days ago [-]
Signed overflow checks are typically not free unfortunately they have a cost of about 5% or thereabouts
vlovich123 6 days ago [-]
In hot paths it can be even more. This is why even Rust defines it as wrapping but elides the overflow panic in release builds.
steveklabnik 6 days ago [-]
It is defined as an error. That error’s default handling is wrapping when debug_assertions is off, and panic when it’s on, but since it’s an incorrect program (though not UB) either behavior is acceptable in any mode.
jstimpfle 6 days ago [-]
If it is defined as an error, but the compiled build will continue to run with the value wrapped around, I would say that's indistinguishable from UB.
12_throw_away 6 days ago [-]
No. An integer getting deterministically set to an unintended value is a bug. A bug is not the same thing as UB. (Even if it were non-deterministic, it would still not be anything like UB.) It's not the same ballpark, not even the same sport.
jstimpfle 5 days ago [-]
What if the wrapped index is used to construct an invalid pointer? It might be possible, not sure. What if the integer is used to read the wrong data from disk, or corrupt data on disk by writing to the wrong location?
12_throw_away 5 days ago [-]
> What if the wrapped index is used to construct an invalid pointer?
Constructing an invalid pointer in rust is UB, yes, but integer wraparound is not.
> What if the integer is used to read the wrong data to a disk, or corrupt data on disk by writing to the wrong location?
Then it is a very bad bug.
> What if the program controls a nuclear power plant and the integer causes the control system to fail, causing memory errors due to radiation from the meltdown?
Then it is a very very bad bug.
> What if the wrapped integer causes the program to output the true name of god, and the programmer, in their last minutes of existence, looks up to see, overhead, without any fuss, the stars going out?
you're of course 100% right, I was so proud of my nerd joke that I got like the most basic rust safety rule wrong :(
steveklabnik 5 days ago [-]
> What if the wrapped index is used to construct an invalid pointer?
Using that pointer would be UB, but that is UB, not the addition.
> What if the integer is used to read the wrong data from disk, or corrupt data on disk by writing to the wrong location?
That is a bug, but it is not undefined behavior.
SAI_Peregrinus 6 days ago [-]
It's indistinguishable from unspecified behavior, not from undefined behavior. Unspecified behavior has to pick from a finite list of allowed behaviors. Undefined behavior can do anything.
jstimpfle 5 days ago [-]
A program with corrupted state can essentially do anything. Yes it's still a question of run-time checks the runtime has to protect against it. But the compiler is probably deriving a lot of assumptions from the assumption that there wasn't overflow.
steveklabnik 5 days ago [-]
“Undefined behavior” is a term of art in programming languages that means something more specific than “the program may do something odd.”
The compiler is not allowed to derive any assumptions from it. It only could if it were UB.
jstimpfle 5 days ago [-]
But did the rust compiler assume that the integer would not overflow? It did so in Debug mode where runtime checks were added. If it's not the case in Release mode, does that mean semantics are different between Debug and Release?
SAI_Peregrinus 5 days ago [-]
The semantics are well-defined in both modes. You can predict exactly what will happen in either case. In C, the semantics are not defined at all, you can't predict what will happen and it's allowed to change between compilations of the same source.
It will probably get omitted, since Undefined Behavior isn't allowed by the C abstract machine, but sadly compilers are allowed to emit code for UB in the source (partly because some UB is only detectable at runtime). Sometimes disabling optimizations will incorrectly allow codegen to run for source lines which have UB, tricking people into thinking that optimizations are breaking their program. Compilers are allowed to do this, since behaviors other than "omit the offending statement" are unfortunately allowed by the standard, so it's not a compiler bug.
jstimpfle 5 days ago [-]
UB is a runtime property. As far as you can statically verify some code parts, you can see UB at compile time, but the point of UB is exactly that it is about stuff you can't predict, or that is hard to predict as a compiler.
Now why you can cook up trivial artificial examples where a compiler will remove some code sections based on statically detected UB, instead of printing an error, you have to ask the compiler authors.
> The semantics are well-defined in both modes.
So they're not the same? So the behaviour is not uniquely defined by the source code alone, but is actually _very_ different based on compile mode? Between two modes whose point was never to have different semantics, but to have the _same_ semantics while being debuggable vs being fast?
> You can predict exactly what will happen in either case. In C, the semantics are not defined at all, you can't predict what will happen and it's allowed to change between compilations of the same source.
You can make the same "predictability" argument for C, you can easily write a compiler that has semantics exactly laid out. Case in point: -fwrapv. Case in point: UBSAN.
SAI_Peregrinus 3 days ago [-]
You can write a C compiler with exactly laid out well-defined semantics. You can't assume those semantics hold for C-the-language, because it doesn't define those semantics. UB is a property of the language, not just of a given compiler. The Rust reference defines the semantics of the safe subset of Rust without any UB, so any compliant Rust compiler won't have UB in that subset. The reference also defines the guarantees which the programmer must uphold within `unsafe` blocks to avoid UB, as long as those are upheld there's no UB at all.
jstimpfle 3 days ago [-]
I understand that. It makes no practical difference. 99,99% of my additions don't rely on signed overflow for example, and if I'd ever need it there are ways to get just it.
Or tell me how you write a Rust program differently given that signed overflow is apparently defined? I bet you write it exactly the same way, and you get pretty much the same behaviour in practice. And we're even only debating actual overflow situations, meaning there is a bug whatever the compiled behaviour is.
C the language doesn't even guarantee that the machine has native integers with 8, 16, 32, 64 bits etc, that a cacheline is 64 bits, that a page is 4K, and here I am, writing programs for exactly that.
steveklabnik 5 days ago [-]
> But did the rust compiler assume that the integer would not overflow?
It did not.
> It did so in Debug mode where runtime checks were added.
It didn't assume in that case either. It did a well defined thing: add checks.
> If it's not the case in Release mode, does that mean semantics are different between Debug and Release?
Strictly speaking, the language doesn't know about "release mode", as that's a Cargo thing. But yes, in practice, the semantics are different based on various things: it could be debug vs release, it could also be flags that control the behavior. But that's still distinct from "undefined behavior" as a concept. The behavior is well defined, with multiple possible options for behaviors.
jstimpfle 4 days ago [-]
So in Rust, you are actually specificing TWO programs with a single source? Those Rust users are surely too clever for my liking!
You can tune a C compiler as well to have a very specific defined behaviour for integer overflow. You can add -fwrapv or you can add UBSAN.
The user never intended overflow to happen, because if they did, they could have used something like __builtin_mul_overflow() or whatever. Or they are an emotionally unstable user with destructive tendencies. The user also never intended the program to abort with a (nicely formatted) error message, unless they are a very very sad depressed nihilistic user who also never runs their program in Release mode.
To say that overflow would be defined in Rust is at least half a lie. We could agree that cargo has a choice of diagnostic policy though, a policy how to handle what is essentially a state with no defined or useful path forward, or in other words, UB.
Throwing errors might be a wanted property to detect oversights. C ecosystem has UBSAN too! But essentially the same is still true: Basic arithmetic operations are not closed over the numbers 0..2^N. Rust doesn't have a (unique and useful) definition for those operations for a subset of numbers. Even if you claim the operations are defined (say wrapping arithmetic in Release mode), it's not what the programmer wants. Probably the majority of algorithms work over natural numbers or integer numbers. These algorithms don't work when the arithmetic on integers modulo 2^N.
So the user has to constrain the set of valid inputs, and do manual sanitization, just like in C.
steveklabnik 4 days ago [-]
> You can tune a C compiler as well to have a very specific defined behaviour for integer overflow. You can add -fwrapv or you can add UBSAN.
This is an example of a compiler flag that adds definition to undefined behavior, which is of course, legal to do. That doesn't change that in the standard, it is undefined behavior, and in Rust, it is not.
> To say that overflow would be defined in Rust is at least half a lie.
In the context of "undefined behavior", it is not a lie at all.
> So the user has to constrain the set of valid inputs, and do manual sanitization, just like in C.
No, because the consequences of how the two languages define these behaviors are very, very different.
jstimpfle 4 days ago [-]
As you said, overflow is defined in Cargo, given a specific build type and/or specific build flags. It's not defined in Rust.
Just saying that it's defined and then not saying what the definition is, is no different from saying it's undefined.
steveklabnik 4 days ago [-]
No, “release mode vs debug mode” is defined in Cargo. What’s defined in Rust is the debug_assertions flag, which is one of the things that Cargo will set by default as part of the debug mode by default.
> Just saying that it's defined and then not saying what the definition is, is no different from saying it's undefined.
It actually is, because, as I said earlier, “undefined behavior” is a term of art with very specific meaning. Regardless, it is defined: there are two possible behaviors, with one guaranteed with that flag and the other chosen by implementations.
jstimpfle 4 days ago [-]
I think people make up way too much of it. What is the actual term of art? What is the meaning of UB? If you look in the standard, UB is basically what its name says, it is behaviour (or state) that is not defined. It can be anything. And that makes sense in many cases: What if you construct a random pointer, and read it or write it? It's not useful or practically possible to define the behaviour from then on. So the behaviour is left undefined, simple as that.
Now are there many cases of UB in C, many more than strictly need to exist on contemporary platforms? For sure there are. But does it affect me? Not unless I need a specific behaviour common to most contemporary platforms that I can't get within the confines of C, even considering compiler specific extensions. Honestly I can't come up with any of the top of my head. Maybe some integer-shifting stuff or such, if the compiler was able to prove I'm doing sth undefined, it can leave out that code (or delete my mail, for the doomers). Personally, it hasn't happened to me, and it's on the compiler authors to not do stupid things too.
Leaving all the semantic hair-splitting aside. What is the practical difference in how you write a Rust program compared to a C program, given that integer overflow is "defined" in Rust?
jstimpfle 4 days ago [-]
> It didn't assume in that case either. It did a well defined thing: add checks.
It did. The compiler added the checks (which panic on overflow, from a quick web search) precisely so it (and importantly, the developer!) can assume the overflow didn't happen in the subsequent code. Unless you consider a panic a defined state, and consider wrap-on-overflow equally valid in all cases, it's essentially the same as UB. (panic seems to be considered "unrecoverable").
Difference is _at most_ that C spec gives compiler more freedom to "implement UB", but then again, hit any unsafe code in Rust with wrapped around integer, you probably have comparable practical result -- machine doing random things, corrupting memory and so on.
steveklabnik 4 days ago [-]
Okay, I am going to leave this here, as it’s clear to me that we’re not coming to an understanding.
saagarjha 5 days ago [-]
Yeah on average. On some paths it's almost free
jstimpfle 6 days ago [-]
You can run your code under ASAN and UBSAN nowadays, it will catch many or most of issues as they happen.
But that's completely besides the point. UB on signed overflow, or really most of UB, is not unrelated to C flexibility. It is a detail of the spec related to portability and performance. IIRC it is even required to make such trivial optimizations as turning
for (int i = 0; i < n; i++) func(a[i]);
into
for (Foo *p = a, *last = a + n; p < last; p++) func(p);
saving arithmetics and saving a register, on architectures where `int` is smaller than pointers. But there is also options like -fwrapv on GCC for example, allowing you to actually use signed overflow.
Chinjut 6 days ago [-]
How is undefined behavior necessary for this transformation?
jstimpfle 6 days ago [-]
IIRC computation of the address is done by computing offset from base pointer as a multiplication in (32-bit) int, (like p + (i * sizeof (Foo)). The right term might overflow, but due to signed overflow being UB, the compiler is able to assume that it does not, so the transformation to do the arithmetic entirely in (64-bit) pointer space is valid.
tyg13 6 days ago [-]
Exactly. You as the programmer know that the loop counter won't overflow, and in general, essentially nobody would actually write it that way. But if you don't assume it can't happen, the possibility for signed overflow is everywhere in address computations.
This is also a major blocker for auto-vectorization. Can't coalesce a load of a[i], a[i+1], a[i+2], a[i+3] into a load of a[i:i+3] if there's a possibility that `i+1`, `i+2` or `i+3` wrapped around (thus causing your "contiguous" load to be non-contiguous). This is a big reason why you shouldn't use `unsigned` for loop counters, especially if they're going to be used as an index into an address calculation.
Chinjut 5 days ago [-]
But surely the more natural approach than making this undefined behavior would be making the computation of a[i] take place in 64-bit pointer space rather than 32-bit int space? Why does the compiler need the freedom to emit nasal demons?
jstimpfle 6 days ago [-]
*is not related to C flexibility
simonask 6 days ago [-]
It's not flexible in practice, because knowing the standard isn't optional. If you make the choice to not follow the standard, you're making the choice to write fundamentally broken software. Sometimes with catastrophic consequences.
jstimpfle 6 days ago [-]
I'm making the choice to pass pointers as void to get low-friction polymorphism. I'm making the choice to control the memory layout of my data structures, including of levels and type of indirection. I'm making the choice to control my own memory allocators and closely control lifetimes, closely control (almost) everything that happens in the system.
That has nothing to do with not following the standard.
saagarjha 6 days ago [-]
But be as you may you’re not following the standard.
jstimpfle 6 days ago [-]
what is your point?
Xirdus 6 days ago [-]
If you don't follow the standard, gcc -O2 can introduce bugs to your code that you never even wrote. Skipping null checks, executing both branches of a conditional, and so on.
jstimpfle 6 days ago [-]
Where did I say I'm not following the standard?
Xirdus 6 days ago [-]
I interpreted these words:
> If you want to be standards correct, yes you have to know the standard well.
to mean that being standards-correct is optional. It's not. Every C programmer needs to know every possible UB by heart and never introduce any of it to their code, or else they'll be constantly introducing subtle, hard to debug bugs that contradict the actual code they wrote.
Maybe you meant something different by those words, but then I'm confused what the "if" was supposed to mean.
jstimpfle 6 days ago [-]
Of course it's optional (although I didn't mean to imply that). Even using computers at all is optional. I never said that I don't aim to follow the standard, have a clean compiling program without warnings and without UB, etc. I do strive to achieve all of that.
But it's not entirely black and white, either. In practice I'm fine accepting that some bugs are technically UB but whatever, we've found a bug by whatever manifestation (like NULL dereference most likely leading to segfault in practice). I just fix the bug as a bug, and life goes on.
The standard is not perfect, it does have shortcomings. It can be improved. And it can be interpreted to fix some issues. Let's not hold theory over practicality, and let's expect the compiler writers also strive to do the reasonable thing.
Xirdus 5 days ago [-]
In practice, GCC -O2 will happily erase entire swathes of code and turn perfectly logical source into nonsense assembly whenever it gets as much as a sniff of UB anywhere in the code path. Nobody would be talking about UB if GCC wasn't so aggressive in abusing the freedom UB gives.
To paraphrase your earlier comment - you lose low-friction polymorphism (unpredictable compiler output causes a lot of friction). You lose control of memory allocations (because they may have been elided) and lose control of lifetimes (because free can be moved before last use causing a crash, or removed entirely causing a leak). You lose control of (almost) anything that happens in the system. And it has everything to do with not following the standard.
You do retain control of the memory layout of data structures, though.
jstimpfle 5 days ago [-]
Then I'm almost ashamed to admit that I'm not sure I've ever witnessed any surprising form of UB in the wild. For example, I will reliably get segfaults on NULL dereference in practice. Typical manifestations of UB are entirely predictable and obvious. Of course I'm also running most code without most optimizations, most of the time, while developing.
On the other hand, what I've observed with my own eyes is interesting phenomenons like performance drops, e.g. memory bandwidth dropping from gigabytes/sec to 300 KB/sec due to false sharing on an ARM SOC for example.
Xirdus 5 days ago [-]
There was once a privilege escalation vulnerability in Linux kernel that only happened when compiled with optimizations. In kernel space, address 0 is just regular memory that can be read from and written to if there's a page mapped to it. But in C standard, reads and writes to null pointer are UB.
There was some function that read from a passed pointer unconditionally whether it's null or not. It made sense in context. Then it checked if the pointer is null - if it is do early return, if it's not do privileged operation. The pointer was null iff the user didn't have permissions to do the operation.
What GCC did is notice that a pointer is accessed before its null check. Since accessing a null pointer is UB, and GCC assumes UB never happens, it figured out the null check is superfluous. And removed the check and the early return. The pointer read stayed, mind you. The optimized function would unconditionally read from the pointer even if it's null, then unconditionally execute the privileged operation without checking permissions. That allowed obtaining root access from anywhere.
I saw a few other writeups of interesting UB behavior on The Old New Thing blog. I especially like the time travel one: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20140627-00/?p=63... (apologies to people of the future, links to MS devblogs tend to die often).
saagarjha 5 days ago [-]
Compilers do not surprise all that often which is why it is extra surprising when it does happen
3form 6 days ago [-]
At which point it feels like some sort of high-level assembly-like language, which is simple enough to compile efficiently and stay crossplatform, with some primitives for calls, jumps, etc. could find a nice niche.
Maybe this already exists, even? A stripped down version of C? A more advanced LLVM IR? I feel like this is a problem that could use a resolution, just maybe not with enough of a scale for anyone to bother, vs. learning C, assembly of given architecture, or one of the new and fancy compiled languages.
addaon 6 days ago [-]
There's Vale [0] as a structured high-level assembly language, but pretty far from usable right now. I do hope it matures. Basically: All non-control-flow instructions can be directly supported. Control flow is lofted to a higher level and implemented in C-style structured blocks and keywords, which map directly to a subset of the ISA that modifies the program counter. This separation means it's not a proper superset of traditional assembly languages -- you can't paste in arbitrary blocks of existing code -- but a lot of interesting things (for them, implementations of cryptographic primitives) are pretty trivial to port over. And in exchange, you get a well defined Hoare logic that can talk about total correctness, not just [1]'s partial correctness.
Well, Zig is aiming to be a "saner C", and mostly succeeding so far. I hope they make it to production.
Rust is a somewhat more thorough attempt to actually course-correct.
pjmlp 6 days ago [-]
It is basically what you can have today with Object Pascal or Modula-2, with a revamped syntax for C crowds.
pjmlp 6 days ago [-]
Yes, there have been quite a few C inspired Assembly languages for DSPs for example, TI had one.
HarHarVeryFunny 6 days ago [-]
> In C, we can have a data race on a single thread and without any writes!
Well, sure, that's what volatile means - that the value may be changed by something else. If it's a global variable then the something else might be an interrupt or signal handler, not just another thread. If it's a pointer to something (i.e. read from a specific address) then that could be a hardware device register who's value is changing.
The concept of a volatile variable isn't the problem - any language that is going to support writing interrupt routines and memory mapped I/O needs to have some way of telling the compiler "don't optimize this out" since reading from the same hardware device register twice isn't like reading from the same memory location twice.
I think the problem here is more that not all of the interactions between language features and restrictions have been fully thought out. It's pretty stupid to be able to explicity tell the language "this value can change at any time", and for it to still consider certain uses of that value as UB since it can change at any time! There should have been a carve out in the "unsequenced side effect" definitions for volatile variables.
vlovich123 6 days ago [-]
> There should have been a carve out in the "unsequenced side effect" definitions for volatile variables.
As noted, there’s almost 300 usages of the word undefined in the standard. Believing that it’s possible to correctly define all the carve outs necessary correctly and have the compiler implement the carve outs successfully is about as logical as believing UB is humanly avoidable in written code.
mananaysiempre 6 days ago [-]
And it makes sense as long as you allow the concept of unsequenced operations at all (admittedly it’s somewhat rare; e.g. in Scheme such things are defined to still occur in sequence, but which specific sequence is unspecified and potentially different each time). The “volatile” annotation marks your variable as being an MMIO register or something of that nature, something that could change at any point for reasons outside of the compiler’s control. Naturally, this means all of the hazards of concurrent modification are potentially there.
That said, your “common parlance” definition of “data race” is not the definition used by the C standard, so your last sentence is at best misleading in a discussion of standard C.
> The execution of a program contains a data race if it contains two conflicting actions in different threads, at least one of which is not atomic, and neither happens before the other. Any such data race results in undefined behavior.
(Here “conflicting” and “happens before” are defined in the preceding text.)
tsimionescu 6 days ago [-]
Your first paragraph makes it sound as if the compiler will actually generate two reads of the value of some register, which might lead to unexpected effects at runtime for certain special registers.
However, this is not at all what UB means in C (or C++). The compiler is free to optimize away the entire block of code where this printf() sequence occurs, by the logic that it would be UB if the program were to ever reach it.
For example, the following program:
int y = rand();
if (y != 8) {
volatile int x;
printf("%d: %d", x, x) ;
} else {
printf("y is 8");
}
Can be optimized to always print "y is 8" by a perfectly standard compliant compiler.
mananaysiempre 6 days ago [-]
> Your first paragraph makes it sound as if the compiler will actually generate two reads of the value of some register, which might lead to unexpected effects at runtime for certain special registers.
I don’t see how. I was trying to explain why it’s reasonable for a volatile read to be a side effect, after which the C rule on unsequenced side effects applies, yielding UB as you say.
shakna 6 days ago [-]
"volatile" tells the compiler it is _not_ safe to optimise away any read or write, so it can't just optimise that section away at all.
> An object that has volatile-qualified type may be modified in ways unknown to the implementation or have other unknown side effects. Therefore any expression referring to such an object shall be evaluated strictly according to the rules of the abstract machine, as described in 5.1.2.3. Furthermore, at every sequence point the value last stored in the object shall agree with that prescribed by the abstract machine, except as modified by the unknown factors mentioned previously.
A compliant compiler is only free to optimise away, where it can determine there are no side-effects. But volatile in 5.1.2.3 has:
> Accessing a volatile object, modifying an object, modifying a file, or calling a function that does any of those operations are all side effects.
rcxdude 6 days ago [-]
Yes, but undefined behaviour is undefined behaviour, and that behaviour can legally be that the code is not emitted at all, volatile (or any other side effect) or not. (and compilers do reason about undefined behaviour when optimising, so this isn't necessarily a completely theoretical argument, though I don't know whether the in compiler's actual logic which of 'don't optimise volatile' or the 'do assume undefined behaviour is impossible and remove code that definitely invokes it' would 'win', or whether there's any current compiler that would flag this as unconditionally undefined behaviour in the first place).
shakna 6 days ago [-]
Volatile wins.
GCC calls that out [0] - volatile means things in memory may not be what they appear to be, and that there are asynchronous things happening, so something that may not appear to be possible, may become so, because volatile is a side-effect.
So about the only optimisation allowed to happen, is combining multiple references.
Clang is similar:
> The compiler does not optimize out any accesses to variables declared volatile. The number of volatile reads and writes will be exactly as they appear in the C/C++ code, no more and no less and in the same order.
That's cool and all if you are writing GCC or Clang dialect C, but it doesn't change the fact that it is UB in the C standard.
rcxdude 6 days ago [-]
This is all assuming that the code is not invoking undefined behaviour. If the code is invoking undefined behaviour, GCC and clang are both well within their rights to say 'none of the rest of our documentation applies' (and have historically done so on bug reports).
saagarjha 6 days ago [-]
Sure it can. That code path has unconditional UB and thus it is not valid.
shakna 6 days ago [-]
Only if there would be no side-effects. Which there are.
saagarjha 6 days ago [-]
No this is irrelevant for making this decision
shakna 6 days ago [-]
I've mentioned elsewhere the standards, and compilers as well, disagreeing with you here.
But feel free to run against the various compilers through godbolt. [0] They won't optimise the branch away. Access to a volatile, must be preserved, in the order that they exist. No optimisation, UB or otherwise, is allowed to impede that. Because an access is a side-effect.
Compilers not doing something is not a demonstration that they are not actually allowed to do that thing.
saagarjha 6 days ago [-]
That they won’t is as most a courtesy to you but they are not required to do this.
shakna 6 days ago [-]
> Furthermore, at every sequence point the value last stored in the object shall agree with that prescribed by the abstract machine, except as modified by the unknown factors mentioned previously.
I quoted the C standard, first. Not compiler behaviour.
I showed where it requires the compiler not to optimise this.
How about, instead of one-line throwaway disagreements, you point out where they are permitted to do this, instead?
dwattttt 6 days ago [-]
The compiler is required to not optimise out reads/writes through volatile. That's unrelated to code also having UB: you can't sprinkle volatile through arbitrary UB and suddenly have it be defined.
> A compliant compiler is only free to optimise away, where it can determine there are no side-effects
A compliant compiler is also allowed to assume UB cannot occur.
nilamo 6 days ago [-]
This looks like a long back and fourth, that can easily be solved by a minute or two on godbolt...
aw1621107 6 days ago [-]
> that can easily be solved by a minute or two on godbolt...
Unfortunately it's not that simple when it comes to UB. If the snippet in question does in fact exhibit UB then there's no guarantee whatever Godbolt shows will generalize to other programs/versions/compilers/environments/etc.
nilamo 6 days ago [-]
That's very funny to me.
A) x is always removed.
B) no, it's never removed if volatile.
But neither person can prove what a compiler will actually do, despite claiming they'll always act a certain way given 5 lines of code.
tialaramex 6 days ago [-]
Also, at behavioural edges what you'll see on Godbolt is compiler bugs. So you learn nothing about what should happen.
All popular modern C++ compilers have known bugs and while I'm sure there are C compilers with no known bugs that will be because nobody tested very hard.
dwattttt 6 days ago [-]
I have watched a compiler flip between emitting the code I expected (despite it having UB), and emitting unexpected code after a minor update.
What you observe a compiler do when there's UB is not at all something you can rely on.
rcxdude 6 days ago [-]
No, claim A is 'x may be removed by a conforming C compiler'. Whether any given version of a given compiler actually does so in any given circumstance is a different question (the answer being: probably not, because while this is undefined behaviour it's not likely something that is going to be flagged as such by a compiler's optimizer. Also, from some testing with GCC and forcing a null point dereference, it seems like volatile at least does win in that case with the current version of it x86, and it dutifully emits the null pointer dereference and then the 'ud2' instruction instead of the rest of that execution path).
saagarjha 6 days ago [-]
I made the weaker claim that x can be removed. This is something I could prove with compiler output but I would have to find a compiler willing to make this optimization which is not something I can guarantee.
saagarjha 6 days ago [-]
No, compilers will often choose to not optimize on UB.
u8080 6 days ago [-]
When compiler decides something is UB aka "result of this code is not defined and could be any" it selects the most performant version of undefined behavior - doing nothing by optimizing code away.
shakna 6 days ago [-]
The compiler is not free to remove accesses to something marked volatile - its defined as a side-effect.
Volatile means something else may be acting here. Something else may install anything into the register at any time - and every time you access.
The compiler is required to preserve the order of accesses. In almost every C compiler, today, there are almost no optimisations the moment a volatile is introduced, for this reason.
tsimionescu 6 days ago [-]
If code has undefined behavior, the entire execution path that leads to that UB has no assigned semantics in the C model. So there are no volatile accesses in this code according to the C abstract machine - the entire execution path is UB, so it can be assumed it doesn't happen at all.
shakna 6 days ago [-]
> An object that has volatile-qualified type may be modified in ways unknown to the implementation or have other unknown side effects. Therefore any expression referring to such an object shall be evaluated strictly according to the rules of the abstract machine
The execution path has unknown side effects, and so the execution path must be strictly followed. That's uh... The entire point of that section in the C standard. Its why volatile is called out, in the semantic model for the abstract machine.
Otherwise... Why call it out, at all? It must be strictly followed, not lazily, as in other areas of the standard.
UB supersedes volatile, once the compiler hits UB then all bets are off. Compilers can and do optimize out UB branches, which is almost never what you want... yet here we are.
>> The moment you enter a compilation unit (assuming no link optimizations) with a state which at some point will run into undefined behavior all bets are of. [...] Yes, UB can "time travel"
> Close, but not quite. This is a common misconception in the reverse direction.
> Abstractly, what UB can do is performing the inverse of the preceding instructions, effectively making the abstract machine run in reverse. However, this is only equivalent to "time-traveling" until you get to the point of the last side effect (where "side effect" here refers to predefined operations in the standard that interact with the external world, such as I/O and volatile accesses), because only everything since that point can be optimized away under the as-if rule without altering the externally visible effects of the program.
> As a concrete, practical example, this means the following: if you do fflush(stdout); return INT_MAX + 1; the compiler cannot omit the fflush() call merely because the subsequent statement had undefined behavior. That is, the UB cannot time-travel to before the flush. What the program can do is to write garbage to the file afterward, or attempt to overwrite what you wrote in the file to revert it to its previous state, but the fflush() must still occur before anything wild happens. If nobody observes the in-between state, then the end result can look like time-travel, but if the system blocks on fflush() and the user terminates the program while it's blocked, there is no opportunity for UB.
rcxdude 6 days ago [-]
Sure, but in this case the volatile accesses are part of the undefined behaviour and so they're not outside of the blast radius.
SpaceNugget 6 days ago [-]
The print example has no defined order of accesses, function parameters can be evaluated in any order. But further, the entire problem with UB is that it supercedes the regular guarantees that you get (like with volatile) when it's encountered. Yes gcc and clang do the obvious thing that makes the most sense in this example, but what people are trying to tell you is that they could just not do that and they would still be complying with the standard. For example, you can imagine a more serious example of UB that causes the program to fail to compile completely, and then do you emit the correct number of in order reads of volatile variables? Obviously not.
shakna 6 days ago [-]
Function parameters cannot be evaluated in any order, when one of them is a volatile.
> The initialization shall occur in initializer list order, each initializer provided for a particular subobject overriding any previously listed initializer for the same subobject
And what I am trying to tell people, is the standard has expectations around the volatile keyword, that the compilers took into account when designing how they would work - it isn't just kindness, its compliance. But no one is actually talking about the quotes from the standard, and just quoting themselves and their own understandings.
SpaceNugget 6 days ago [-]
That quote doesn't have anything to do with parameter evaluation order. There is no order for function parameter evaluation.
And no, there is no exception for undefined behavior. There can't be, otherwise the behavior would be... defined. It's in the name. Again, what do you think the compiler emits when the undefined behavior causes the program to not compile altogether?
rocketrascal 6 days ago [-]
Are you sure?
>unsequenced side effects on the same scalar object are UB
>6.5.3.3.8 tells us that the evaluations of function arguments are indeterminately sequenced w.r.t. each other.
Read 5.1.2.4.3:
"If A is not sequenced before or after B, then A and B are unsequenced."
"Evaluations A and B are indeterminately sequenced when A is sequenced either before or after B, but it is unspecified which."
With a footnote saying this:
"9)The executions of unsequenced evaluations can interleave. Indeterminately sequenced evaluations cannot interleave, but can be executed in any order."
I.e the standard makes a distinction between "unsequenced" and "indeterminately sequenced".
And with no mention of side effects on "indeterminately sequenced" being UB it leads me to conclude that your example is not UB.
berti 6 days ago [-]
Reading a register from a microcontroller peripheral may well reset it as an example of a possible side-effect here, and that's exactly the kind of thing you use volatile for.
smsm42 6 days ago [-]
I think C standard doesn't do itself any favors by using "undefined behavior" to signify both "anything can happen, including erasing all your data and setting your data center on fire" and "one of the very small and well defined set of things would happen, but we can not commit to which one". The latter is not exactly great, but significantly less dangerous than the former.
zahlman 6 days ago [-]
> Here's a way weirder example:
Well, yes; but when the C standard authors wrote like this, they surely had in mind "the reads could be in either order, therefore the output could display the polled values in either order". Not C++ nasal demons.
And yeah, being able to say "reading is a side effect" is important when for example you interact with certain memory-mapped devices.
sethev 6 days ago [-]
Yes, there is a data race there. The value of a volatile can be changed by something outside the current thread. That’s what volatile means and why it exists.
Edit: thread=thread of execution. I’m not making a point about thread safety within a program.
mananaysiempre 6 days ago [-]
Not from the standard’s point of view. The traditional (in some circles) use of volatile for atomic variables was not sanctioned by the C11/C++11 thread model; if you want an atomic, write atomic, not volatile, or be aware of your dependency on a compiler (like MSVC) that explicitly amends the language definition so as to allow cross-thread access to volatile variables.
sethev 6 days ago [-]
Thread was a poor choice of word. Outside the control of the program is a better way to put it. Like memory mapped io.
surajrmal 6 days ago [-]
It's almost universally better to use inline assembly via a macro to read/write mmio rather than use volatile.
trissylegs 6 days ago [-]
Can also represent a register that has an effect reading it. Reading a memory mapped register can have side effects. Like memory mapped io on a UART will fetch the next byte to be read.
frollogaston 6 days ago [-]
Was going to say the same thing until I saw this comment. volatile is defined the way I'd expect, plus it's a strange code example.
jstimpfle 6 days ago [-]
Not sure why you're being downvoted. That's completely right. The example is silly. The code is obviously bad, doesn't matter if it's UB or not.
I'm also not convinced (yet) that the example really is UB: I agree reading a volatile is "a side effect" in some sense, and GP cited a paragraph that says just that. But GP doesn't clearly quote that it's a side effect on the object (or how a side effect on an object is defined). Reading an object doesn't mutate it after all.
But whatever language lawyer things, the code is obviously broken, with an obvious fix, so I'm not so interested in what its semantics should be. Here is the fix:
volatile int x;
// ...
int val = x; // volatile read
printf("%x %d\n", val, val);
crote 6 days ago [-]
The problem is that the function call as a whole is UB. Having the original example compile to the equivalent of
volatile int x;
int a = x;
int b = x;
printf("%x %d\n", a, b);
is equally valid as
volatile int x;
int a = x;
int b = x;
printf("%x %d\n", b, a);
, and neither needs to have the same output as your proposed fix.
C could've specified something like "arguments are evaluated left-to-right" or "if two arguments have the same expression, the expression is [only evaluated once]/[always evaluated twice]". But it didn't, so the developer is left gingerly navigating a minefield every time they use volatile.
indigo945 6 days ago [-]
Not only is "arguments are evaluated left-to-right" less easy to formalize than you think, it would also make all C code run slower, because the compiler would no longer be able to interleave computations for more efficient pipelining. The same goes for "expression is [only evaluated once]/[always evaluated twice]".
Of course the developer is navigating a minefield every time they use volatile, that's why it's called "volatile" - an English word otherwise only commonly used in chemistry, where it means "stuff that wants to go boom".
imtringued 6 days ago [-]
Your argument makes no sense since the developer is expected to perform manual sequencing. Correctly written UB free code cannot be interleaved either.
All you've achieved is that the standard C function call syntax can no longer be used as is.
remexre 6 days ago [-]
the compiler can still interleave anything it shows is side-effect free; it’s hard to show that something would benefit from being reordered without analyzing it well enough to determine what side effects it has
jstimpfle 6 days ago [-]
I understand, that's why I said the code is obviously broken. The problem is not about order of evaluation. It's not about an UB arising from unsequenced volatile reads or whatever.
The problem is simply that the there are two volatile reads where only one was intended. It doesn't matter if there is UB or not. The code doesn't express the intention either way. All you need to know to understand that is that volatile might be modified concurrently (a little bit similar but not the same semantics as atomics).
rramadass 6 days ago [-]
This has got nothing to do with data races etc. but everything to do with "Sequence Points and Single Update Rule" which is well described in C language specification.
With volatile it could be changed by an interrupt service routine between reads, so it makes sense.
nomel 6 days ago [-]
Or, it could be hardware that has a "clear flag on read" type behavior.
drysine 6 days ago [-]
What's weird about it?
If you are using volatile you are reading from a device port mapped to that address.
Since C doesn't mandate in which order function arguments are evaluated, you don't know which argument will be read from port first.
How can that be anything but UB?
6 days ago [-]
imtringued 6 days ago [-]
Memory mapped IO sends a read request to a peripheral which is allowed have side effects in the background and return two different values upon a read. You can think of it as a synchronous RPC request.
The lack of argument sequencing feels utterly petty however.
netrikare 6 days ago [-]
[dead]
beeforpork 6 days ago [-]
The UB in unaligned pointers is even worse: an unaligned pointer in itself is UB, not only an access to it. So even implicit casting a void*v to an int*i (like 'i=v' in C or 'f(v)' when f() accepts an int*) is UB if the cast pointer is not aligned to int.
It is important to understand that this is a C level problem: if you have UB in your C program, then your C program is broken, i.e., it is formally invalid and wrong, because it is against the C language spec. UB is not on the HW, it has nothing to do with crashes or faults. That cast from void* to int* most likely corresponds to no code on the HW at all -- types are in C only, not on the HW, so a cast is a reinterpretation at C level -- and no HW will crash on that cast (because there is not even code for it). You may think that an integer value in a register must be fine, right? No, because it's not about pointers actually being integers in registers on your HW, but your C program is broken by definition if the cast pointer is unaligned.
thomashabets2 6 days ago [-]
Author here.
> an unaligned pointer in itself is UB
Yup. Per the "Actually, it was UB even before that" section in the post.
> UB is not on the HW, it has nothing to do with crashes or faults
Yeah. I tried to convey this too, but I'm also addressing the people who say "but it's demonstrably fine", by giving examples. Because it's not.
account42 6 days ago [-]
Which is totally fine and expected for any decent programmer. Casting pointers is clearly here be dragons territory.
simonask 6 days ago [-]
Many, many programmers come to C (and C++) with a lower-level understanding that actually gets in the way here. They understand that all types "are" just bytes and that all pointers "are" just register-sized integer addresses, because that's how the hardware works and has worked for decades.
It's perfectly reasonable to expect any load through `int*` to just load 4 bytes from memory, done and done. They get surprised that it is far from the whole story, and the result is UB.
Meanwhile, the actual computers we have been using for decades have no problems actually just loading 4 bytes through any arbitrary pointer with zero overhead. But no.
lelanthran 6 days ago [-]
> They understand that all types "are" just bytes and that all pointers "are" just register-sized integer addresses, because that's how the hardware works and has worked for decades.
I'd clarify this with "They understand that all values are just bytes".
> Meanwhile, the actual computers we have been using for decades have no problems actually just loading 4 bytes through any arbitrary pointer with zero overhead.
It's partly the standards fault here - rather than saying "We don't know how vendors will implement this, so we shall leave it as implementation-defined", they say "We don't know how vendors will implement this, so we will leave it as undefined".
A clear majority of the UB problems with C could be fixed if the standards committee slowly moved all UB into IB. It's not that there isn't any progress (Signed twos-complement is coming, after all), it's that there is (I believe) much pushback from compiler authors (who dominate the standards) who don't want to make UB into IB.
mike_hock 6 days ago [-]
> A clear majority of the UB problems with C could be fixed if the standards committee slowly moved all UB into IB
There is no such thing as getting rid of "all UB."
What behavior is the implementation supposed to prescribe for a write to an unpredictable garbage address you read from the network?
It could overwrite your code. It could overwrite any value anywhere. It could overlap with anything.
Prescribing defined behavior for absolutely everything would require defining a precise, unoptimizable 1-to-1 mapping to assembly code and disallowing any multithreading.
lelanthran 5 days ago [-]
> What behavior is the implementation supposed to prescribe for a write to an unpredictable garbage address you read from the network? I
"The compiler is not allowed to elide a write to a garbage address".
Wasn't that easy?
mike_hock 2 days ago [-]
No, because that doesn't mean anything. All the other guarantees the compiler has to make about the other parts of your program have potentially been violated by the write, so the compiler can't guarantee any particular behavior.
Hence, "undefined behavior," of the entire program, not just that particular write.
saagarjha 6 days ago [-]
Turning undefined behavior into implementation defined behavior is rarely a fix, though.
lelanthran 6 days ago [-]
It's a fix that removes the most pointy part of UB.
"Going past the end of the array results in addressing arbitrary values" I can live with. "Going past the end of an array results in anything happening" is a hard sell.
charleslmunger 6 days ago [-]
Is that really a meaningful distinction?
Once you are addressing arbitrary values you are firmly in the realm of "anything happening" in practice, but you've now given up optimization opportunities. As has been repeatedly demonstrated over the years, once memory safety breaks it is practically impossible to make any guarantees about program behavior.
marcosdumay 6 days ago [-]
Yes, it's a meaningful distinction. No you are not into "anything happening" in practice.
Your compiler emitting a load operation and it failing isn't "anything". The failure being handled by code that the compiler authors can't predict doesn't make it "anything".
And if you lose optimization opportunities because of this it's because your optimization is broken. By the way, if you lose optimization opportunities because of this, that means both codes are meaningfully different and you knew it all the time.
saagarjha 5 days ago [-]
Compilers elide loads all the time this is one of the more basic optimizations a compiler can do. We just mostly think those are "good" optimizations.
charleslmunger 5 days ago [-]
I mean... You can turn a one byte out of bounds write into code execution.
And if you get code execution, then you by definition have "anything".
saagarjha 6 days ago [-]
I think it’s a really easy sell, actually: if you go past the end of the array far enough you end up accessing the stack which includes parts of the program like “where does this function return to” or “what is the index used to perform this access” or “there is no page mapped there”. None of these are arbitrary values.
lelanthran 6 days ago [-]
The "anything can happen" means that the compiler can simply silently refuse to emit the code does the access.
Documenting that the instructions to access will always be eliminated makes it easier to predict what will happen.
bee_rider 6 days ago [-]
Can you unravel this further (for those of us who don’t know compilers)? I’ve always assumed access past the end of an array can’t always be detected in C, so I don’t see how those instructions could be eliminated.
For example, a dynamically linked library that takes in a pointer, and then writes to the 10 ints after it—whether or not this behavior is defined is determined after that library is compiled, right?
horsawlarway 6 days ago [-]
I think the disconnect here is that you're operating on the assumptions built by using common architectures that have solved these problems in implementation specific forms, and you're used to those solutions.
But just because those forms are common, doesn't mean the behavior is actually defined.
Ex - I might be using a vendor specific compiler for custom embedded devices where dynamic linking isn't available at all, and which might have complicated storage mechanisms that look nothing like standard memory pages.
bee_rider 6 days ago [-]
I’m not sure there’s a disconnect at all (note that I’m not saagarjah, they and lelanthran seem to be pushing back on each other’s opinions; I’m just asking a clarifying question).
horsawlarway 6 days ago [-]
Yes, and I'm saying your clarifying question hints at a misunderstanding.
You're already deep into the bowels of implementation specific behavior by the time we talk about dynamic linking. The C standard doesn't have anything to say about it at all.
My read on the above conversation is basically a discussion about asking/requiring vendors to properly document their implementation, as opposed to leaving it undocumented (the default - given my experience with hardware manufacturers...).
I don't think the real takeaway is that "instructions should be eliminated in case [blah blah blah]" it's that "Something is going to happen, please tell me what that is on your system, instead of leaving it as UB" (Basically - make UB in the standard implementation defined behavior from the vendor).
My read is that this won't happen because it's genuinely incredibly difficult to do, and this isn't a space overflowing with capital to allocate to the problem. But I do think there's merit to the idea of pushing vendors to provide coverage in this space AT SOME POINT.
lelanthran 6 days ago [-]
> I’ve always assumed access past the end of an array can’t always be detected in C, so I don’t see how those instructions could be eliminated.
"Can't always be detected" is jut a different way of saying "Can sometimes be detected".
Upon detection, I'd rather that the compiler still emit the instructions, not elide the code altogether.
twoodfin 6 days ago [-]
Now the behavior of your compiler/runtime stack is dependent on the sophistication of your compiler or runtime relative to the particular code at issue + the specific information available statically or dynamically in the instance.
That does not seem like an improvement if your goal is predictable, consistent behavior.
lelanthran 5 days ago [-]
> Now the behavior of your compiler/runtime stack is dependent on the sophistication of your compiler or runtime relative to the particular code at issue + the specific information available statically or dynamically in the instance.
> That does not seem like an improvement if your goal is predictable, consistent behavior.
Getting unpredictable outcomes only on some items is better than getting unpredictable outcomes on every item. This is what I meant when I said moving UB to IB might not fix everything, but it is certainly a solid start!
saagarjha 5 days ago [-]
Yes, but usually you don't want this. You think you do, but you don't: you can't always eliminate these, and often eliminating the extra accesses is not the most efficient thing to do either. Sometimes it's faster to have the loads and not check, sometimes you can check and skip that path, etc.
thomashabets2 6 days ago [-]
Are you talking about creating a pointer (more than one item) past an array, or dereferencing that pointer? Both are currently UB.
For the former, I kinda get it. It may need to be there for cases like with segmented address space where p+10 could actually be a value less than p, for the eventually generated assembly. Maybe it should be fine to create such a pointer, but have it be "indeterminate value" or whatever, if you try to compare that pointer to anything? I don't know enough about compiler internals to say one way or the other.
Dereferencing, though, can only be UB. There may not be a "value" behind that address. There may be a motor that's been I/O mapped, or a self destruct button.
lelanthran 6 days ago [-]
I'm not saying that the result of the dereference be known, I'm saying that the instructions to do the dereference be always emitted.
Right now, if a dereference results in UB, the compiler may omit it entirely.
thomashabets2 6 days ago [-]
I think I would defer to someone more of a language lawyer than we, but I'm not sure what you're describing can be expressed in the C abstract machine. If a pointer is invalid, not pointing to an object, then I'm not sure it means anything to "read from there".
I know what you mean, but I'm just not sure you're describing something that fits what C "is". We program C to the abstract machine specified in the standard (5.1.2), and the compiler's job is to translate that into something with identical behavior on particular hardware. Piercing the layers down to actual hardware or assembly isn't really done.
Even "volatile" just says (basically) "touching this object has side effects". It implies no double-loading, speculative store, etc, but doesn't say "don't emit assembly instructions to load this unless the program logic path takes the route where the C program does load it".
The standard is not using ancient language when it refers to "objects with static storage duration" instead of "heap" or ".data segment". It is the true class of objects in the abstract machine.
charleslmunger 6 days ago [-]
Wouldn't that make a compiler that emitted bounds checks violate the standard, since it would not be emitting the actual memory operations if you deref out of bounds?
marcosdumay 6 days ago [-]
No, because it's UB so there is no standard.
charleslmunger 5 days ago [-]
Isn't the proposal from the parent comment to define the behavior?
benj111 6 days ago [-]
>It's partly the standards fault here - rather than saying "We don't know how vendors will implement this, so we shall leave it as implementation-defined", they say "We don't know how vendors will implement this, so we will leave it as undefined
I'd agree to a point. I still think it's unreasonable for compiler writers to get all lawyery about precise terminology. After all "implementation defined" could still be subject to the same lawyeriness (we implemented it, ergo we define it).
To me this is an issue of culture. We need to push back against the view that UB means anything can happen, therefore the compiler can do anything.
fc417fc802 6 days ago [-]
But it's genuinely useful. In all seriousness, are you sure you aren't perhaps just using the wrong language? At this point UB and leveraging it for optimization are core parts of the most performant C implementations.
That said, I think there are many cases where compilers could make a better effort to link UB they're optimizing against to UB that appears in the code as originally authored and emit a diagnostic or even error out. But at least we've got ubsan and friends so it seems like things are within reason if not optimal.
benj111 6 days ago [-]
>are you sure you aren't perhaps just using the wrong language
Well I think there is a tension here. C is the language for microcontrollers and the language for high performance.
In ye olden days both groups interests were aligned because speed in C was about working with the machine. Now the UB has been highjacked for speed, that microcontroller that I'm working on, where I know and int will overflow and rely on that is UB so may be optimised out, so I then have to think about what the compiler may do.
I wouldn't say C is the wrong language. I would say there are wrong compilers though.
lelanthran 6 days ago [-]
> At this point UB and leveraging it for optimization are core parts of the most performant C implementations.
I am skeptical that NULL-pointer checks being removed contribute anything more than a rounding error in performance gains in any non-trivial program.
charleslmunger 6 days ago [-]
I got a measurable improvement from eliminating a null pointer check within the last week. Billions of devices have arm little cores, and the extra branch predictor pressure and frontend bandwidth from those instructions can be significant.
A standard way to eliminate those is to invoke undefined behavior if some condition is not met;
if (a == NULL) {
__builtin_unreachable();
}
Which then allows elimination of the null check in later code, possibly after inlining some function.
Being able to assume certain things don't happen is powerful when you're writing optimisations, not doing that would have a real performance cost
lelanthran 6 days ago [-]
> Being able to assume certain things don't happen is powerful when you're writing optimisations, not doing that would have a real performance cost
A few of those are significant performance gains, the majority are not.
Emitting the instruction for a NULL pointer dereference is effectively no more costly than not emitting that instruction.
It's the code removal that's killing me.
circuit10 6 days ago [-]
What if the compiler is able to use that to determine that a whole code path is dead, and then significantly improve the surrounding function because of that?
Compilers optimise in multiple passes and removing things earlier can expose optimisation opportunities later that can affect other parts of the code too
lelanthran 6 days ago [-]
> What if the compiler is able to use that to determine that a whole code path is dead,
Then it should warn "unreachable code".
> and then significantly improve the surrounding function because of that?
It's not simply the removal that is the problem, it's that the code is silently removed.
circuit10 5 days ago [-]
I don’t mean this in a rude way but you should really read the posts I linked, it’s interesting and part 3 especially answers these questions
You don’t want warnings for every piece of code in a library you’re not using or sanity check you added that isn’t supposed to be hit
And you can’t warn when you’re optimising based on undefined behaviour because you can’t know when it will happen, that is equivalent to the halting problem
If you warned whenever undefined behaviour could be happening then e.g. every single pointer deference would say “warning: compiling assuming pointer is not null or unaligned”
lelanthran 5 days ago [-]
> I don’t mean this in a rude way but you should really read the posts I linked, it’s interesting and part 3 especially answers these questions
I have read the entire series. Both in the past and more recently.
> If you warned whenever undefined behaviour could be happening then e.g. every single pointer deference would say “warning: compiling assuming pointer is not null or unaligned”
I am not proposing that at all, I am proposing (which the series you link to does not preclude) that eliding code on the basis of UB can be determined by the compiler. If the compiler can determine that some code block needs to be elided, then the reason for that elision has already been determined, in which case it can issue a warning when "reason" == "pointer already used" when eliding the null check.
circuit10 4 days ago [-]
When your code can be completely reshaped by earlier passes and macro expansions and inlining I don’t think it’s feasibly to make a useful warning for that
If you include a library function with a null check that gets inlined you probably don’t want a bunch of warnings there for code you don’t even control
benj111 6 days ago [-]
Right. But to take the first example, the value of initialised memory.
It's undefined so it doesn't have to be zeroed therefore increasing efficiency.
But it's also UB so if you do know that memory contains something, you can't take advantage of that because it's UB. Having it UB is fine. It's the compilers assuming UB can't happen and optimising it away.
da-alex 6 days ago [-]
> Meanwhile, the actual computers we have been using for decades have no problems actually just loading 4 bytes through any arbitrary pointer with zero overhead. But no.
Not if those 4 bytes span a cacheline boundary, that will most likely result in 1/2 throughput compared to loading values inside a single cacheline.
And if it causes cache-misses it takes up twice the L2 or L3 bandwidth.
Even worse, if the int spans two pages, it will need two TLB lookups. If it's a hot variable and the only thing you use from those pages, it even uses up an additional TLB entry, that could otherwise be used for better perf elsewhere, etc.
And if you're on embedded (and many C programs are), Cortex-M CPUs either can't handle unaligned accesses (M0, M0+) or take 2-3 times as long (split the load into 2x2 byte or 1x2 + 2x1 byte)
simonask 6 days ago [-]
I don’t think any of that is justification for making unaligned access UB. It’s reason to avoid it or discourage it in certain scenarios, but it’s infinitesimally rare that loading 8 bytes instead of 4 is even measurable, and that includes embedded.
tialaramex 6 days ago [-]
> that all pointers "are" just register-sized integer addresses
And crucially until DR#260 https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/dr_260.htm this was a reasonable guess as to what the pointers are. Probably not a wise guess because it's not how your C compiler worked even then, but a reasonable guess if you didn't think too hard about this.
One way I like to think about this is that all C's types are just the machine integers wearing crap Halloween costumes. Groucho glasses for bool, maybe a Lincoln hat for char, float and double can be bright orange make-up and a long tie. But the pointers are different, because unlike the other types those have provenance.
5 == 5, 'Z' == 'Z', true == true, 1.5f == 1.5f, but whether two pointers are equivalent does not depend solely on their bit pattern in C.
mafuy 6 days ago [-]
I'm not sure that's right. For instance, the Pentium 4 spec explicitly says unaligned int32 loads take longer. And x86/x64 is very gentle in that regard, other archs would whip you. So an unaligned int access is rightfully treated differently. It should be IB.
Just creating the pointer, though, should not be UB, even though it apparently is. It should not even be IB.
simonask 6 days ago [-]
Also, it’s been way more than a decade since Pentium 4 was remotely relevant.
TazeTSchnitzel 6 days ago [-]
> Meanwhile, the actual computers we have been using for decades have no problems actually just loading 4 bytes through any arbitrary pointer with zero overhead.
PCs yes, but there are many other things C is compiled to for which this is not true.
titzer 6 days ago [-]
C isn't a programming language. It's not even portable assembly. It's a vague suggestion of a program that might or might not be feasible to run on a target computer and the compiler and other diagnostic tools are under no obligation whatsoever to help you find out what, if anything, is wrong with your program. It's user hostile and should be relegated to the bad old days.
pjc50 6 days ago [-]
Except ARM32. ARM64 doesn't guarantee it to be valid in all cases either.
array_key_first 6 days ago [-]
Yes but casting pointers is virtually required in any non-trivial C program, and frankly even a lot of the trivial ones, because there's no other way to do type erasure or generics. Well, there kind of are now, and there's always been macros, but void * has historically been the predominant way this is done at runtime.
201984 6 days ago [-]
>an unaligned pointer in itself is UB, not only an access to it.
Can someone point to where the standard states this?
adrian17 5 days ago [-]
I think this is 6.3.2.3.7 in C99 about casting between pointer types:
> If the resulting pointer is not correctly aligned for the
pointed-to type, the behavior is undefined.
However, unless I’m missing something, producing such a pointer from an integer is apparently not insta-UB? 6.3.2.2.5:
> An integer may be converted to any pointer type. Except as previously specified, the
result is implementation-defined, might not be correctly aligned, might not point to an
entity of the referenced type, and might be a trap representation
And later on 6.5.3.2.4:
> If an invalid value has been assigned to the pointer, the behavior of the unary * operator is undefined.
Which implies that the invalid pointer must have been obtained without being already undefined, right?
imtringued 6 days ago [-]
The problem with C UBI is that originally it meant the compiler has the freedom to map your code to the hardware inspite of machine instructions differing slightly between one another. The same C program may express different behaviour depending on which architecture it is running on.
This type of UB is fine and nobody really complains about hardware differences leading to bugs.
However, over time aggressive readings of UB evolved C into an implicit "Design by Contract" language where the constraints have become invisible. This creates a similar problem to RAII, where the implicit destructor calls are invisible.
When you dereference a pointer in C, the compiler adds an implicit non-nullable constraint to the function signature. When you pass in a possibly nullable pointer into the function, rather than seeing an error that there is no check or assertion, the compiler silently propagates the non-nullable constraint onto the pointer. When the compiler has proven the constraints to be invalid, it marks the function as unreachable. Calls to unreachable functions make the calling function unreachable as well.
jcranmer 6 days ago [-]
> The problem with C UBI is that originally it meant the compiler has the freedom to map your code to the hardware inspite of machine instructions differing slightly between one another. The same C program may express different behaviour depending on which architecture it is running on.
You're conflating undefined behavior with implementation-defined behavior. If it was only to do with what we think of as normal variance between processors, then it would be easy to make it implementation-defined behavior instead.
The differentiating factor of undefined behavior is that there are no constraints on program behavior at that point, and it was introduced to handle cases where processor or compiler behavior cannot be meaningfully constrained. One key class is of course hardware traps: in the presence of compiler optimizations, it is effectively impossible to make any guarantees about program state at the time of a trap (Java tried, and most people agreed they failed); but even without optimizations, there are processors that cannot deliver a trap at a precise point of execution and thus will continue to execute instructions after a trapping instruction.
stilley2 6 days ago [-]
Does that mean that if I have a struct with #pragma pack(push, 1) I can't use pointers to any members that don't happen to be aligned?
saagarjha 6 days ago [-]
This is a non-standard extension, so your compiler may provide stronger guarantees.
AlotOfReading 6 days ago [-]
In practice, both GCC and Clang consider pointers to these unaligned members to be UB and will flag them in UBSAN.
tovej 6 days ago [-]
But that seems obvious. You can't load an integer from an unaligned address.
It's not only C-level is it. There's no (guarantee across architectures for) machine code for that either.
codeflo 6 days ago [-]
> You can't load an integer from an unaligned address.
You can, and the results are machine specific, clearly defined and well-documented. Ancient ARM raises an exception, modern ARM and x86 can do it with a performance penalty. It's only the C or C++ layer that is allowed to translate the code into arbitrary garbage, not the CPU.
saagarjha 6 days ago [-]
There’s usually not a performance penalty on modern hardware
orlp 6 days ago [-]
There's typically only a performance penalty if the unaligned load spans a cache line on modern hardware.
matheusmoreira 6 days ago [-]
Sure you can. In many architectures it works just fine. Works perfectly in x86_64, for example. It's just a little slower.
tovej 6 days ago [-]
In many architectures does not mean you can. The standard is supposed to cover all architectures.
matheusmoreira 6 days ago [-]
If some architecture traps on unaligned access, then the compiler can and should simply generate the correct code so that it loads the integer piece by piece instead. Load multiple integers and shift and mask away the irrelevant bits, done. This is exactly what modern architectures already do in hardware. Works, it's just a little slower.
This is exactly what the compilers do if you use a packed structure to access unaligned data. Works everywhere, as expected. Compilers have always known what to do, they just weren't doing it. C standard says no.
The fact is the standard is garbage and the first thing every C programmer should learn is that they can and should ignore it. There is never any reason to wonder what the standard is supposed to do. The only thing that matters is what compilers actually do.
da-alex 6 days ago [-]
But if it's a pointer, the compiler doesn't know the alignment at compile time.
Should the compiler insert an alignment check of every pointer access?
matheusmoreira 6 days ago [-]
Compilers could add support for an unaligned attribute that we can apply to pointers. I'd prefer that to wrapping everything in a packed structure which is quite unsightly.
Would have been better if correct behavior was the default while pointer alignment requirements were opt in, just like vector stuff. Nothing we can do about it now.
I would hope the compiler is smart enough to figure out which accesses are aligned and unaligned on its own.
josefx 6 days ago [-]
> If some architecture traps on unaligned access, then the compiler can and should simply generate the correct code so that it loads the integer piece by piece instead.
Wouldn't the compiler have to assume that every pointer access might be unaligned and do the slow "piece by piece" access every time? It can hardly guess the runtime value of a pointer during compilation.
matheusmoreira 5 days ago [-]
It should be able to make a lot of inferences. For example, taking the address of some value allocated by the compiler itself results in an aligned pointer unless the programmer overrides it. Compiler should be able to trace it from there. Pointers from malloc are also aligned.
If compiler is not doing it for some reason, __builtin_assume_aligned can be used to explicitly mark a pointer as aligned.
bluGill 6 days ago [-]
The pointer might be something you forced. The compiler needs to do the right thing but if you set the pointer to an unaligned address because you have information on the hardware you can get this undefined situation with nothing the compiler can do about it.
matheusmoreira 6 days ago [-]
Any reason the hardware pointer can't be accessed via the packed structure?
The same reason you probably aren’t adding manual alignment fixes to your code?
matheusmoreira 6 days ago [-]
No reason at all, then. Because I am manually dealing with alignment in my code.
Wrote a lisp, its bytes type supports reading and writing integers at arbitrary locations within the buffer. Test suite exercises aligned and unaligned memory access for every C integer type. Also wrote my own mem* functions, dealing with alignment in those was certainly a fun exercise. It wasn't necessary, I just wanted the performance benefits.
bluGill 6 days ago [-]
however you certainly can do that. The point of unaligned is the hardware can't load it from a single memory location in one address. It needs two accesses. And in that time, the value of one of the two addresses that the hardware has to load can change.
I would hope you're not so stupid as to design hardware that relies on this, but the fact is it certainly is possible for someone to do that. And if you do that, there is nothing that the compiler or the standard can do. It can't be done correctly
matheusmoreira 6 days ago [-]
Yeah, the unaligned accesses aren't going to be atomic unless the hardware supports it.
> And in that time, the value of one of the two addresses that the hardware has to load can change.
You mean volatile addresses that could spontaneously change in the middle of the reads? Like memory mapped I/O addresses?
I would expect these to have stricter access requirements than arbitrary general purpose memory locations.
> I would hope you're not so stupid as to design hardware that relies on this
You and me both.
> And if you do that, there is nothing that the compiler or the standard can do. It can't be done correctly
Anything that does that is broken and terrible anyway. It really shouldn't contaminate language design. It's the sort of thing that compilers should be adding attributes for, rather than constraining the language to the point nothing works correctly and making us use attributes on everything to restore some sane baseline behavior.
bluGill 6 days ago [-]
> Anything that does that is broken and terrible anyway
which is why it is undefined behaviour. the optimizer writers have told me consistently that if they can assume you're not doing this thing that's stupid anyway, they can make my code faster. And since I'm not doing that stupid thing anyway, I want my code to be faster.
matheusmoreira 6 days ago [-]
Unaligned memory access isn't really stupid though. Not in the general case. Not to the point where it should give the compiler free reign to crash things or introduce security holes. It should just introduce a performance regression instead, which is a tractable problem. Just measure it and fix it by making things aligned.
Compilers can add some custom attributes that encode whatever semantics the badly designed hardware requires. This lets it freely break incorrect code in the small sections that are actually handling those special variables, while allowing the rest of the language to make sense.
mike_hock 6 days ago [-]
> If some architecture traps on unaligned access, then the compiler can and should simply generate the correct code so that it loads the integer piece by piece instead.
LMAO what?!
The compiler should pessimize each and every memory access everywhere with an alignment check on the pointer and a branch, or forego the efficient memory access method of the platform entirely and just do bytewise loads only?!
matheusmoreira 5 days ago [-]
Unaligned access. Not every access. Compiler should be able to analyze code, determine alignment invariants and optimize everything it can. If not, __builtin_assume_aligned could help whenever it needs to be made explicit. Alignment should have been part of the type itself to begin with but there's no fixing that now.
mike_hock 2 days ago [-]
So yes, pessimize each and every access. No, that's not acceptable. And no, just because the compiler can get rid of some of the alignment checks where static analysis can prove that the pointer is aligned doesn't cut it.
Yes, making alignment part of the type system would be the correct fix. And yes, that's absolutely still possible since unaligned access is still UB. You're not breaking existing code. You could easily add new pointer types with (static) alignment information.
crote 6 days ago [-]
That's why we write C instead of assembly, isn't it?
You could also mandate that a compiler for architectures without unaligned access either has to prove that the access is going to be aligned or insert a wrapper to turn the unaligned access into two aligned ones.
Just pretending the issue doesn't exist at all and making it the programmer's problem by leaving it as UB in the spec is a choice.
mbel 6 days ago [-]
Unless your code targets some exotic architecture, like idk x86.
cataphract 6 days ago [-]
Not really. Wait until the compiler starts vectorizing your code and using instructions requiring alignment (like the ones with A or NT in the mnemonic).
saagarjha 6 days ago [-]
Usually the compiler will probably not generate those
bigfishrunning 6 days ago [-]
> Usually...probably...
you're betting against the compiler ever improving.
saagarjha 6 days ago [-]
This would be a regression
bigfishrunning 5 days ago [-]
Why? Automatic vectorization is pretty bad and has been for years, but wouldn't it be nice if the compiler could unroll-loops and use SIMD instructions to make your code faster while also being correct?
saagarjha 5 days ago [-]
If you are using SIMD instructions on x86 you probably want the unaligned ones
pjc50 6 days ago [-]
You missed the point: the pointer existing as a value of that type at all is UB, even if you never try to access anything through it and no corresponding machine code is ever emitted.
tovej 6 days ago [-]
Yes? I agree with that. I don't really see the issue there. The computer will allocate data in aligned addresses, so you would have to be doing something weird to begin with to access unaligned pointers. And aligned access is always better anyway. I guess packed structs are a thing if you're really byte golfing. Maybe compressed network data would also make sense.
But then I would assume you are aware of unaligned pointers, and have a sane way to parse that data, rather than read individual parts of it from a raw pointer.
I am curious, what would be a legitimate reason for an unaligned pointer to int?
simonask 6 days ago [-]
String search algorithms would be one example, where a 64-bit register can be used as a “vector” containing 8x1 bytes.
jstimpfle 6 days ago [-]
Where is the part about unaligned pointers?
simonask 6 days ago [-]
Strings typically consist of UTF-8 bytes, and any old `char*` pair has no alignment guarantees.
jstimpfle 5 days ago [-]
That's true, and that's why your typical string vector code has a prelude and a postlude to do the incomplete chunks at the ends. Between the ends, it's processing larger self-aligned chunks.
simonask 5 days ago [-]
If you're aware of that technique, why were you asking about use cases for unaligned loads?
jstimpfle 5 days ago [-]
I'm saying that string search algorithms are _not_ a legitimate use case for unaligned loads.
simonask 5 days ago [-]
You didn’t really say that, but feel free to share any reasons you might have to think so.
I don’t see any reason why it wouldn’t be perfectly fine on recent hardware, where unaligned loads are just as fast, and the cache pressure is identical for a linear search algorithm.
jstimpfle 5 days ago [-]
I asked where is the part about unaligned pointers in your string processing example. Saying that you want to load multiple bytes at a time does not imply at all that you have to do unaligned loads.
Doing unaligned loads using SSE or AVX might have been possible on Intel architectures for a long time, but it is still a little bit slower afaik. But anyway when you get into sub-architecture specific details like that, you've essentially left C-land, and you're essentially doing assembler level programming.
simonask 3 days ago [-]
Every vectorized string search algorithm (including those treating an unsigned long as a "vector" of 8 bytes) currently needs a prelude that performs the search up to the first alignment boundary, and then performs the bulk of the search on well-aligned blocks, and then finally a postlude search in the tail of the string, where the tail is shorter than the block size/alignment.
Using unaligned loads, you can get rid of the prelude, including the associated branches and intptr arithmetic, and just have to deal with the tail.
If you're comparing short-ish strings, almost all of the time is spent in the prelude and postlude, even if the entire substring fits in a register. This is a silly language limitation when the hardware can actually easily just support the unaligned load.
In particular, it doesn't seem justified that what at most amounts to a tiny inefficiency in hardware turns into a very expensive class of bugs (UB).
jstimpfle 3 days ago [-]
Have you ever wanted to do this? I find the premise ridiculous.
But anyway, you're complaining that you have to work too hard to do unaligned loads (i.e. the wrong thing even if it should work on a particular machine) in C, when basically every other language makes you work more for basic systems programming tasks?
Whether unaligned loads can work on the machine level, it depends on the hardware. On some other architectures, you probably get anything from traps to unpredictable behaviour. It's totally fine that C does not define the behaviour for unaligned loads.
If you want to do some weird stuff like loading a single unaligned 16 byte quantity, where there was no "middle part" to begin with, just do memcpy then. The compiler might just do the appropriate thing on this architecture. Or if you need to closely control what's happened, write assembly then. But again, why would you even do this?
quelsolaar 6 days ago [-]
The 5 stages of learning about UB in C:
-Denial: "I know what signed overflow does on my machine."
-Anger: "This compiler is trash! why doesn't it just do what I say!?"
-Bargaining: "I'm submitting this proposal to wg14 to fix C..."
-Depression: "Can you rely on C code for anything?"
-Acceptance: "Just dont write UB."
matheusmoreira 6 days ago [-]
What stage is the "just make the compiler define the undefined" stage?
Unaligned access? Packed structs. Compiler will magically generate the correct code, as if it had always known how to do it right all along! Because it has, in fact, always known how to do it right. It just didn't.
Strict aliasing? Union type punning. Literally documented to work in any compiler that matters, despite the holy C standard never saying so. Alternatively, just disable it straight up: -fno-strict-aliasing. Enjoy reinterpreting memory as you see fit. You might hit some sharp edges here and there but they sure as hell aren't gonna be coming from the compiler.
Overflow? Just make it defined: -fwrapv. Replace +, -, * with __builtin_*_overflow while you're at it, and you even get explicit error checking for free. Nice functional interface. Generates efficient code too.
The "acceptance" stage is really "nobody sane actually cares about the C standard". The standard is garbage, only the compilers matter. And it turns out that compilers have plenty of extremely useful functions that let you side step most if not all of this. People just don't use this because they want to write "portable" "standard" C. The real acceptance is to break out of that mindset.
Somehow I built an entire lisp interpreter in freestanding C that actually managed to pass UBSan just by following the above logic. I was actually surprised at first: I expected it to crash and burn, but it didn't. So if I can do it, then anyone can do it too.
quelsolaar 6 days ago [-]
A lot of the Central UB can not be defined, because they rely on detection. In order to have a well defined behaviour (by the standard or the compiler) the implementation needs to first detect that the behaviour is triggered, this is often very tricky or expensive. Its easy to define that a program should halt, if it writes outside an array, but detecting if it does can be both slow and hard to implement. There are implementations that do, but they are rarely used outside of debugging.
A better way to think about UB is as a contract between developer and implementation, so that the implementations can more easily reason about the code. How would you optimize:
(x * 2) / 2
An optimizer can optimize this out for a signed integer, because it doesn't have to consider overflow, but with a unsigned integer it can not. UB is a big reason why C is the most power efficient high level language.
matheusmoreira 6 days ago [-]
> How would you optimize: (x * 2) / 2
I'd do the math myself and just write x.
I don't even use * for multiplication anymore, I use __builtin_mul_overflow and then check the result. Anyone who doesn't is gonna hit the overflow case one day, and they'll be lucky if their program isn't exploited because of it. I've been making an effort to use all the overflow checking builtins by default in most if not all cases. I've also been making Claude audit every single bare arithmetic operation in my projects. He's caught quite a few security issues already, and overflow checking dealt with them all.
This particular contract between developer and implementation is totally worthless and doing more harm than good. It encompasses regular everyday normal things like multiplication and addition. All things that our brains literally rely on in order to reason about the code. Can't even add numbers without the compiler screwing it up.
Programmers need to deal with overflow at all times. Can't calculate an offset without dealing with overflow. Can't calculate a size without dealing with overflow. It's simply everywhere in systems programming, which is what C was designed to do. The consequence of ignoring this is usually that your program gets mercilessly exploited.
All this for some efficiency gains. The cost/benefit analysis is way off here. Things should be correct, first and foremost. Then the compiler should give us the necessary sharp tools to make it fast, if needed. It shouldn't be making it fast at the cost of turning the entire language into a memetic vulnerability machine.
pjmlp 5 days ago [-]
The thing with (x * 2) / 2 is that for all practical purposes you might even have written something else, so the expression cannot be replaced by x directly.
What happens is that after a few common expression eliminations, peephole optmisations, code inlining, and possibly other optimisation passes, the remaining AST will be (x * 2) / 2, and then the magic happens.
matheusmoreira 3 days ago [-]
That makes sense... I agree, and I don't really have an elegant answer to that at the moment.
I simply accepted the fact that the magic might stop happening at (x * 2) / 2. This acceptance bought me certainty about overflow behavior. I think it was a good tradeoff.
quelsolaar 6 days ago [-]
The things you want from C isn't C. Id advice you to use another language.
matheusmoreira 6 days ago [-]
No. I like C. I've learned about a dozen languages by now. I always end up coming back to C. I've just accepted it.
There is no reason whatsoever that C can't be improved. Compiler attributes and builtins are already doing quite a lot of heavy lifting. Recent addition: counted_by, an attribute that allows compilers to properly track the size of memory referenced by pointers. All C programmers should be making liberal use of this stuff.
gpderetta 6 days ago [-]
> Unaligned access? Packed structs.
Packed structs are dangerous. You can do unaligned accesses through a packed type, but once you take the address of your misaligned int field, then you are back into UB territory. Very annoying in C++ when you try to pass the a misaligned field through what happens to be generic code that takes a const reference, as it will trigger a compiler warning. Unary operator+ is your friend.
matheusmoreira 6 days ago [-]
> but once you take the address of your misaligned int field
Gotta work with the structure directly by taking the address of the packed structure itself.
struct uu64 {
u64 value;
} __attribute__((packed));
struct uu64 unaligned;
struct uu64 *address = &unaligned;
address->value; // this works
u64 *broken = &address->value; // this doesn't
Taking the address of the field inside the structure essentially casts away the alignment information that was explicitly added to stop the compiler from screwing things up. So it should not be done.
Mercifully, both gcc and clang emit address-of-packed-member warnings if it's done. So the packed structures are effectively turning silently broken nonsense code into sensible warnings. Major win.
Georgelemental 6 days ago [-]
> Strict aliasing? Union type punning. Literally documented to work in any compiler that matters, despite the holy C standard never saying so.
It does say so, actually, since C99 TC3 (DR 283).
matheusmoreira 3 days ago [-]
Thanks, I stand corrected.
duped 6 days ago [-]
> People just don't use this because they want to write "portable" "standard" C
Something that bothers me is the Venn diagram of people that think abstraction is slow and error prone and people that only write portable C.
How many C implementations do you actually need to compile against? I don't think I've seen more than 3 outside Unix software from the 90s. Using non portable extensions is in fact totally doable for your application and you should probably do it, and just duplicate/triplicate code where you have to. It's not that hard to write and not hard to read.
pjmlp 6 days ago [-]
Back when I still wrote C at work, it meant Aix xlC, HP-UX aCC, Solaris Forte, Red-Hat Linux GCC, Windows MSVC and C++ Builder.
Nowadays most are indeed clang and GCC forks, or MSVC.
duped 5 days ago [-]
That's what I mean, I've seen enough autoconf "checking for <feature that totally works in every compiler you care about>" noise to know it's mostly pointless in this day in age.
lelanthran 6 days ago [-]
> What stage is the "just make the compiler define the undefined" stage?
It can be left as implementation defined, which means that the compiler can't simply do arbitrary things, it needs to document what it would do.
Take, for example, signed-integer overflow: currently a compiler can simply refuse to emit the code in one spot while emitting it in another spot in the same compilation unit! Making it IB means that the compiler vendor will be forced to define what happens when a signed-integer overflows, rather than just saying, as they do now, "you cannot do that, and if you do we can ignore it, correct it, replace it or simply travel back in time and corrupt your program".
> Somehow I built an entire lisp interpreter in freestanding C that actually managed to pass UBSan just by following the above logic. I was actually surprised at first: I expected it to crash and burn, but it didn't. So if I can do it, then anyone can do it too.
Same here; I built a few non-trivial things that passed the first attempt at tooling (valgrind, UBsan with tests, fuzzing, etc) with no UB issues found.
matheusmoreira 6 days ago [-]
Completely agree. It can, and I think it's extremely annoying that it wasn't.
So we have the next best thing: builtins and flags. So long as those cover all the undefined behavior there is, we can live with it. Compiler gets to be "conformant" and we get to do useful things without the compiler folding the code into itself and inside out.
MrBuddyCasino 6 days ago [-]
One of these days you should write a blogpost about this.
pjmlp 6 days ago [-]
Lost in the submission attempt to WG14.
thomashabets2 6 days ago [-]
Author here.
> -Acceptance: "Just dont write UB."
The point of my article is that this is not possible. This cannot be our end state, as long as humans are the ones writing the code. No human can avoid writing UB in C/C++.
jart 6 days ago [-]
It's honestly not that difficult to be rigorous. The things you mentioned in the blog post are pretty obvious forms of degenerate practices once you get used to seeing them. The best way to make your argument would be to bring up pointer overflow being ub. What's great about undefined behavior is that the C language doesn't require you to care. You can play fast and loose as much as you want. You can even use implicit types and yolo your app, writing C that more closely resembles JavaScript, just like how traditional k&r c devs did back in the day under an ilp32 model. Then you add the rigor later if you care about it. For most stuff, like an experiment, we obviously don't care, but when I do, I can usually one shot a file without any UB (which I check by reading the assembly output after building it with UBSAN) except there's just one thing that I usually can't eliminate, which is the compiler generating code that checks for pointer overflow. Because that's just such a ridiculous concept on modern machines which have a 56 bit address space. Maybe it mattered when coding for platforms like i8086. I've seen almost no code that cares about this. I have to sometimes, in my C library. It's important that functions like memchr() for example don't say `for (char *p = data, *e = data + size; p<e; ...` and instead say `for (size_t i = 0; i < n; ++i) ...data[i]...`. But these are just the skills you get with mastery, which is what makes it fun. Oh speaking of which, another fun thing everyone misses is the pitfalls of vectorization. You have to venture off into UB land in order to get better performance. But readahead can get you into trouble if you're trying to scan something like a string that's at the end of a memory page, where the subsequent page isn't mapped. My other favorite thing is designing code in such a way that the stack frame of any given function never exceeds 4096 bytes, and using alloca in a bounded way that pokes pages if it must be exceeded. If you want to have a fun time experiencing why the trickiness of UB rules are the way they are, try writing your own malloc() function that uses shorts and having it be on the stack, so you can have dynamic memory in a signal handler.
thomashabets2 6 days ago [-]
> It's honestly not that difficult to be rigorous.
Ok, let's try it. I pointed GPT 5.5 at the smallest part of cosmopolitan as I could find in two seconds, net/finger. 299 lines.
describesyn.c:66: q + 13 constructs a pointer that can point well beyond the array plus one element.
C23 6.5.6p9:
> If the pointer operand and the result do not point to elements of the same array object or one past the last element of the array object, the behavior is undefined
Now… you may be trolling, but I do feel like this disproves your assertion. Not you, not me, not Theo de Raadt, can avoid UB.
> the compiler generating code that checks for pointer overflow.
Do you need to check for that specifically? What pointer are you constructing that is not either pointing at a valid object correctly aligned (not UB), or exactly one past the element of an array?
Do you mean for the latter, in case you have an array that ends on the maximum expressible pointer address?
I'm a bit unclear on what you mean by "pointer overflow". From mentioning 56 bit address spaces I'm guessing you mean like the pointer wrapped, not what I pointed to in cosmopolitan, above?
Ok, to be clear that it's not just that one type, if you forgive that one:
net/http/base32.c:64: read sc[0] even if sl=0. I assume this is never called with sl=0, so could be fine.
net/http/ssh.c:355: pointer address underflow? Should that be `e - lp`?
net/http/ssh.c:209/229: double destroy of key. can this code path have non-null members, meaning double free? Looks like it, since line 207 does the parsing and checks that parse worked.
net/http/ssh.c:123: uses memset, which assumes that it sets member variable pointers to NULL (per my post, depending on that means depending on UB), and later these pointers are given to free(), so that's UB.
I won't look deeper into net/http, but presenting just the possibly incorrect remaining comments from jippity:
- ssh.c:211 and parsecidr.c:44: length-taking APIs use unbounded strstr() / strchr(), so explicit n with non-NUL-terminated input can read beyond the buffer.
- tokenbucket.c:77 and tokenbucket.c:92: x >> (32 - c) is UB for c == 0 and for out-of-range c.
- isacceptablehost.c:68: long numeric host labels can overflow signed int b before the function eventually rejects/accepts the host.
andai 6 days ago [-]
> For most stuff, like an experiment, we obviously don't care, but when I do, I can usually one shot a file without any UB (which I check by reading the assembly output after building it with UBSAN)
Does this depend on the project, or part of a project? I'm wondering how far that scales, I don't know labor intensive it is -- maybe you can just look at the output and see that nothing funny is happening?
frollogaston 6 days ago [-]
"Just don't write UB" sounds like still part of the bargaining stage at best
im3w1l 6 days ago [-]
In C, acceptance is "I will write UB and it will eventually lead to something bad happening"
superxpro12 6 days ago [-]
Just work on embedded devices like I did lol. It's so nice to write software targeting a specific cpu.
Ygg2 6 days ago [-]
> -Acceptance: "Just dont write UB."
Just switch to a saner language.
And before I get attacked for being a Rust shill, I meant Java :P
The bar is so low it's floating near the center of the Earth.
dns_snek 6 days ago [-]
> And before I get attacked for being a Rust shill, I meant Java :P
If all you want is C but less insane then the obvious answer here is Zig.
simonask 6 days ago [-]
Zig is cool, but it is not even close to being ready for prime-time. It will be pre-1.0 for a while, and major breaking changes are still happening.
dns_snek 6 days ago [-]
Sure, maybe don't bet your entire company on mountains of Zig code just yet, but aside from the breaking changes it's been perfectly usable and suitable for every project I've ever wanted to work on.
psychoslave 6 days ago [-]
If all somebody want is a programming language than C/C++ on these matter, there are plentiful options of the shelf to pick from.
If all somebody want is a turn key replacement to C/C++ ecosystem, then there is nothing like that in the world that I’m aware of.
AgentME 6 days ago [-]
If someone is switching from C because it's too easy to trigger undefined behavior, picking one of the few other not memory safe languages is missing the point.
dns_snek 3 days ago [-]
>> If all you want is C but less insane
Zig has orders of magnitude less undefined behavior and orders of magnitude more memory safety than C. It's not a binary situation.
pjmlp 6 days ago [-]
Object Pascal, with 40 years of experience, no need to wait for 1.0.
p2detar 6 days ago [-]
> Just switch to a saner language.
And where's the fun in that?
psychoslave 6 days ago [-]
That’s a taste matter. Being recalled that what is expressed is always depending on some technical details on every move, this is great when one is loving technical details and have all the leisure time to pay attention to them. This is going to be hell compared to sound defaults for someone willing to focus on delivering higher order feature/functionality which will most likely work just fine.
Unedefined behaviour means "we couldn’t settle on a best default trade-off with fine-tuning as a given option so we let everyone in the unknown".
xeyownt 6 days ago [-]
[flagged]
ErroneousBosh 6 days ago [-]
Okay, so Java compiles to machine code now?
Because the last time I looked it appeared to need some godawful slow bytecode interpreter that took up thousands of kilobytes of RAM.
elch 6 days ago [-]
If you don't like JIT/JVM there's GraalVM Native Image.
Great, can you fit it into 768 bytes of flash and 64 bytes of RAM?
crote 6 days ago [-]
It isn't 1970 anymore. You can get 32-bit ARM MCUs with tens of kilobytes of flash and multiple kilobytes of RAM for less than 10 cents.
We've long since reached a point where chips are cheap enough to be disposable. They are included in paper transit tickets and price tags. There is basically no market left where your volume is small enough that custom application-specific ICs aren't an option, but your volume is large enough that the cost of a few additional kilobytes of memory isn't massively outweighed by the developer time saved.
Want several megabytes of RAM and flash to run Java? That's the price of a cup of coffee!
ErroneousBosh 6 days ago [-]
> It isn't 1970 anymore. You can get 32-bit ARM MCUs with tens of kilobytes of flash and multiple kilobytes of RAM for less than 10 cents.
Do they run at single-digit nA current draw?
blacklion 6 days ago [-]
You always could find deep niche where any high-level technology is not suitable.
I don't think you will program such device in C, rather in assembly, right? When you have like memory for 500 commands, it is easier to go directly to assembler, anyway, with such hardware as a target you don't need portability, this code is 100% hardware-dependable, at it is perfectly Ok.
BTW, which uC your have in mind when you talk about single-digit nA draw (in running state? in deep sleep?), because old 8-bit architectures typically are designed for older node processes and not as energy effective as new one, and draw in sleep doesn't depend much on RAM or FLASH size or architecture, it is more design philosophy.
Anyway, PIC16LF (20nA in deep sleep) or 8051 clone (50nA in deep sleep) or STM8 (~0.30 uA in halt) or ATtinys (100nA in deep sleep), which are covered by "768 bytes of flash and 64 bytes of RAM" description are comparable with EFM32 ARM32-M0+ (20nA in deep sleep), same with uA/Mhz, but ARM32-M0+ will do much more work for each Mhz, so it will be more efficient in the end (faster does all work and go to sleep again).
blacklion 6 days ago [-]
> Because the last time I looked it appeared to need some godawful slow bytecode interpreter that took up thousands of kilobytes of RAM.
Did you looked at java 1.2 at 1998 last time? Because after that there is compiler which produce some very efficient profile-guide-optimized code and do tricks like de-virtualization which is not possible with static compiler with support of multiple compilation units (like C++).
Really, there was time in history when HotSpot-compiled JVM bytecode was faster than everything that gcc could produce for comparable tasks. Yes, now this gap is reversed again, as both gcc and clang become much more clever, but still gap is not very wide now.
pjmlp 6 days ago [-]
For 26 years already, it is a matter of choosing the right JDK.
pjc50 6 days ago [-]
Java has been jitted for .. decades?
Hendrikto 6 days ago [-]
You know what JIT means, right? It means that is is not compiled from the start and indeed runs on a bytecode interpreter until the JIT compiler kicks in.
fc417fc802 6 days ago [-]
The java JIT has produced sufficiently fast code for all but the most demanding of HPC applications for going on 20 years. I realize keeping up with new developments can be difficult but the out of date java performance memes are entirely ridiculous by now.
Meanwhile half the world appears to run on cpython of all things.
agentultra 6 days ago [-]
My life for a browser that doesn't jitter and tear when scrolling or a terminal emulator that can actually process data near the speed my hardware can handle.
Hendrikto 6 days ago [-]
Yes, the JIT compiler compiles code. Yes, the results are good. That does not change the fact that the JVM still has and uses a bytecode interpreter, which the comment I replied to disputed.
1718627440 6 days ago [-]
> -Denial: "I know what signed overflow does on my machine."
Or you just not skip the introductory pages, that tell you what the language philosophy of C is, and why there is UB. Yes, UB can be a struggle, but the first four steps are entirely unnecessary. It means that you do not actually understand the core concepts of the very same language you are using, which is kinda stupid.
whizzter 6 days ago [-]
I think the issue has been that the line between de-jure and de-facto behaviours has shifted over the years as compiler optimizations suddenly began relying on de-jure intrepretations of UB to increase performance while ignoring de-facto usage of the language.
When that started happened people became alarmed (oMG UB iS TeH BAD!) and since some old UB machines still had industry support (of organisations that actually participated in ISO meetings instead of arguing online) there was never any movement on defining de-facto usage as de-jure and the alarmist position became the default.
Personally I think the industry would've benefited from a Boring C (as described by DJB) push by people that would've created a public parallell "de-jure" standard that would've had a chance to be adopted by compiler creators.
1718627440 6 days ago [-]
> I think the issue has been that the line between de-jure and de-facto behaviours has shifted over the years as compiler optimizations suddenly began relying on de-jure intrepretations of UB to increase performance while ignoring de-facto usage of the language.
I guess I am too young, and also too much a purist, because I start from the impression of what the language is, not what the implementations happen to do.
> Personally I think the industry would've benefited from a Boring C (as described by DJB) push by people that would've created a public parallell "de-jure" standard that would've had a chance to be adopted by compiler creators.
-O0
greysphere 6 days ago [-]
The examples aren't really undefined behavior. They are examples that could become UB based on input/circumstances. Which if you are going to be that generous, every function call is UB because it could exceed stack space. Which is basically true in any language (up to the equivalent def of UB in that language). I feel like c has enough actual rough edges that deserve attention that sensationalism like this muddies folks attention (particularly novices) and can end up doing more harm than good.
guerby 6 days ago [-]
Ada 83 has no UB on call stack overflow, from the reference manual :
"STORAGE_ERROR This exception is raised in any of the following situations: (...) or during the execution of a subprogram call, if storage is not sufficient."
veltas 6 days ago [-]
So it's just as useful as when your stack area ends with a page that will segfault on access, or your CPU will raise an interrupt if stack pointer goes beyond a particular address?
It's not safe though because throwing an exception, panicking, etc, is still a denial of service. It's just more deterministic than silently overwriting the heap instead. If the program is critical then you need to be able to statically prove the full size of the stack, which you can do with C and C++ with the right tools and restrictions.
guerby 6 days ago [-]
You're mixing specification (a language reference manual) and implementation (a given compiler, target, options, ...).
The Ada language specification says the Ada programmer can expect any Ada compiler when used in fully compliant mode to properly raise STORAGE_ERROR when a stack overflow occurs.
Only the Ada compiler writer has to deal with this, not every single programmer on every single program and platform (the UB behaviour of some languages).
In the case of GCC/GNAT the compiler manual provides insight on how to be in compliant mode per target regarding stack overflow, what are the limitations if any. You have tools to monitor and analyze you Ada code in this respect too.
simonask 6 days ago [-]
Deterministic, well-defined behavior is inherently safer than undefined behavior. It allows you to diagnose the problem and fix it. UB emphatically does not, and I don't dare to think of how many millions of person-hours are wasted every year dealing with the results.
bregma 6 days ago [-]
A segfault is considered safe if you're talking about functional safety because it results in a return to a defined safe state (RTDSS).
If a segfault leads to some other state you do not deem "safe", such as a single program gating access to a valuable asset with a default fail state of "allow", you just have a fundamental design flaw in your system. The safety problem is you or your AI agent, not the segfault.
eru 4 days ago [-]
A reliable 'denial-of-service' is better than silently doing the wrong thing.
> If the program is critical then you need to be able to statically prove the full size of the stack, which you can do with C and C++ with the right tools and restrictions.
Only for specific implementations; and neither C nor C++ standard guarantee that your program won't overflow the stack anyway. (Have a look, the standard says nothing about stack overflows, they still occur in practice with supposedly compliant compilers. So it seems that there are no rules about when they can happen.)
eru 6 days ago [-]
That's not true at all.
First, you can define what happens when stack space is exceeded. Second not all programs need an arbitrary amount of stack space, some only need a constant amount that can be calculated ahead of time. (And some languages don't use a stack at all in their implementations.)
Your language could also offer tools to probe how much stack space you have left, and make guarantees based on that. Or they could let you install some handlers for what to do when you run out of stack space.
stevenhuang 6 days ago [-]
The examples are unequivocally UB. Full stop.
How to think of this properly is that when you have UB, you are no longer under the auspices of a language standard. Things may work fine for a time, indefinitely even. But what happens instead is you unknowingly become subject to whimsies of your toolchain (swap/upgrade compilers), architecture, or runtime (libc version differences).
You end up building a foundation on quicksand. That's the danger of UB.
flohofwoe 6 days ago [-]
> The examples are unequivocally UB. Full stop.
Tbh, already the first example (unaligned pointer access) is bogus and the C standard should be fixed (in the end the list of UB in the C standard is entirely "made up" and should be adapted to modern hardware, a lot of UB was important 30 years ago to allow optimizations on ancient CPUs, but a lot of those hardware restrictions are long gone).
In the end it's the CPU and not the compiler which decides whether an unaligned access is a problem or not. On most modern CPUs unaligned load/stores are no problem at all (not even a performance penalty unless you straddle a cache line). There's no point in restricting the entire C standard because of the behaviour of a few esoteric CPUs that are stuck in the past.
PS: we also need to stop with the "what if there is a CPU that..." discussions. The C standard should follow the current hardware, and not care about 40 year old CPUs or theoretical future CPU architectures. If esoteric CPUs need to be supported, compilers can do that with non-standard extensions.
account42 6 days ago [-]
Not having unaligned access in the language allows the compiler to assume that, for basic types where the aligment is at least the size, if two addresses are different then they don't alias and writes to one can't change the result of reads from the other. That's a very useful assumption to be able to make for optimization - much more useful than yolocasting pointers in a way that could get you unaligned ones.
flohofwoe 6 days ago [-]
> if two addresses are different ...
Eh, if the compiler knows that two addresses are different at compile time, it also knows how big the difference is.
saagarjha 6 days ago [-]
Usually this is not the case.
tialaramex 6 days ago [-]
Indeed one of the fun LLVM bugs is that it can arrive at a situation in which it believes pointer A and pointer B are definitely not equal (weird given what's about to happen but OK that's potentially fine...) then we ask for their addresses† as integers X and Y, LLVM insists those integers aren't equal either because the pointers weren't (which as we're about to see is wrong) and then we subtract X - Y or Y - X and the answer either way is zero. Awkward. The integers were definitely equal.
† Although on a real modern CPU the pointer "is" just an address, notionally it has three components, the address, an address space (modern machines typically only have one) and a "provenance".
stevenhuang 6 days ago [-]
I agree. I meant to elaborate more on how to think of UB.
For most C software on x86_64, UB is "fine" with very strong bunny ears. But it is preferable for one to, shall we say, write UB intentionally rather than accidentally and unknowingly. Having an awareness of all the minefields lends for more respect for the dangers of C code, it makes one question literally everything, and that would hopefully result in more correct code, more often.
On that note, on some RISC-V cores unaligned access can turn a single load into hundreds of instructions.
I think the problem is just that C is under specified for what we expect a language to provide in the modern age. It is still a great language, but the edges are sharp.
eru 4 days ago [-]
How is UB fine? It can make your programme rather exploitable, depending on compiler. And the compiler might change her mind tomorrow.
leni536 6 days ago [-]
Undefined means that the ISO C doesn't define the behavior. An implementation is free to do so.
simonask 6 days ago [-]
If they do, that is no longer an implementation of C. It is a dialect of C, and there are many (GNU C being the most popular), but there are real drawbacks to using dialects.
This is in contrast to the other category that exists, which is "implementation-defined".
flohofwoe 6 days ago [-]
The thing is that the actual compiler behaviour matters more for real-world projects than what the C standard says. E.g. the C standard was always retroactive, it merely tried to reign in wildly different compiler behaviour at the time when the standard was new. It mostly succeeded, but still the most useful C and C++ compiler features are living in non-standard extensions.
leni536 6 days ago [-]
Unaligned access being fine in one architecture, but not in others would create separate dialects, regardless of being blessed by ISO C.
Just don't do unaligned access, it's a dialect that doesn't exist currently, and should never exist.
eru 4 days ago [-]
> Unaligned access being fine in one architecture, but not in others would create separate dialects, regardless of being blessed by ISO C.
That doesn't mean unaligned access would need to be UB. It could be implementation defined. Or could just be defined to result in an error on all machines.
leni536 4 days ago [-]
Implementation-defined without further constraining the behavior is not much better than undefined.
Defining it to always error would add overhead even for proper aligned access on x86, as the generated code would need to explicitly check in many cases.
eru 1 days ago [-]
> Implementation-defined without further constraining the behavior is not much better than undefined.
No, it's a lot better. Because implementations have to define it.
1718627440 6 days ago [-]
> If they do, that is no longer an implementation of C.
This is plain wrong. Undefined behaviour, means the C standard specifies no restriction on the behaviour of the program, which is what the implementation chooses to emit. An implementation can very well choose to emit any program it pleases, including programs that encrypt your harddisk, but also programs that stick to well defined rules.
simonask 6 days ago [-]
Sure, but the point is that code written against such a compiler is not C and is not portable. It is written in a dialect of C, and that comes with drawbacks.
Writing C (or any language) means adhering to the standard, because that's the definition of the language.
skydhash 6 days ago [-]
Maybe it’s a generation thing. Languages like ML and Lisp have many implementations, while newer languages like Perl and Python are steered by a single organization. It’s way easier for the latter to have a single source of truth.
The C standard reminds me of Posix. You have a rough guideline if you ever wanted to port a program, but you actually have to learn the new compiler and its actual behavior before doing so.
eru 4 days ago [-]
C started off as a single implementation, then a bunch of implementations, and only later the standard.
There's multiple implementations of Python, but you are right that CPython is the big one. Part of that dynamic is that CPython runs on nearly everything well enough (well, as good as Python runs), so that we don't really need multiple implementations. Unlike the first C Compilers.
Of course, Lisp is a family of languages these days. Scheme and Common Lisp have many implementations, but Racket or Arc only have one.
rocketrascal 6 days ago [-]
You can't make any useful software in "Portable C" - or any portable language for that matter.
Side effects matter, and they are always non-portable/implementation defined/dependent on the hardware.
What printf() actaully does is implementation defined - what does "printing mean", does a console even exist? Maybe a user expects it to show graphical ascii/utf8 glyphs on a LCD display? Well, not every computer has that, so now what?
eru 4 days ago [-]
> You can't make any useful software in "Portable C" - or any portable language for that matter.
Have you heard of Java or even Python or JavaScript?
> Side effects matter, and they are always non-portable/implementation defined/dependent on the hardware.
Granted. But how does the need for implementation defined excuse undefined behaviour?
> What printf() actaully does is implementation defined [...]
> Well, not every computer has that, so now what?
The standard can be written conditionally: 'if the computer has display, printf shall show something.'
1718627440 6 days ago [-]
I agree, that most practical programs will rely on unportable behaviour, but
> What printf() actaully does is implementation defined - what does "printing mean", does a console even exist? Maybe a user expects it to show graphical ascii/utf8 glyphs on a LCD display? Well, not every computer has that, so now what?
You can very well write a program, that doesn't make an assumption about any of those things. In fact you should, because the user is to be the arbiter of in what environment your program gets invoked and what it gets connected to. Writing a program that makes assumptions about the specific behaviour of stdout is going to be highly impractical and annoying and also violates the abstraction and interface that stdout is. This consideration isn't just valid for stdout, but also for any other interface your programs naturally interfaces with.
> Well, not every computer has that, so now what?
In the case stdout is not available or can't process your data it is going to return -1 and set errno and then you can deal with that.
IshKebab 6 days ago [-]
There are still modern CPUs that don't support misaligned access. It would be insane for C to mandate that misaligned accesses are supported.
However I do agree that just saying "the behaviour is undefined" is an unhelpful cop-out. They could easily say something like "non-atomic misaligned accesses either succeed or trap" or something like that.
> In the end it's the CPU and not the compiler which decides whether an unaligned access is a problem or not.
Not just the CPU - memory decides as well. MMIO devices often don't support misaligned accesses.
1718627440 6 days ago [-]
> They could easily say something like "non-atomic misaligned accesses either succeed or trap" or something like that.
That means that the compiler must emit the read, even if the value is already known or never used, as it might trap. There is a reason for the UB!
IshKebab 6 days ago [-]
No it doesn't. Compilers are only required to emit the read for volatile types. If the type is non-volatile, misaligned, and can be optimised out then it would be perfectly fine to omit it (that would be the "succeed" option).
1718627440 6 days ago [-]
If a trap is observable behaviour, then the compiler either needs to add code, that checks for the condition and then traps explicitly or it needs to actually perform the read. Currently it can be optimized out, because it is UB.
IshKebab 6 days ago [-]
I think you misunderstood my suggestion. It isn't that misaligned accesses must either all succeed or all fail. That's not possible in general because of MMIO devices.
The suggestion is that each individual access must either succeed or trap. Those are the only possible outcomes, but different accesses can result in different outcomes.
imtringued 6 days ago [-]
You're merely attacking his particular suggestion and using this as an argument to defend UB, when those are completely independent concerns.
What people want is for a compiler that assumes that all pointers are aligned to use an aligned store or load instruction whenever the compiler wants to issue such an instruction. There is no need for UB here.
In other words, they want the compiler to stick with the decision it made and not randomly say "I can't do the thing I've been doing correctly for decades, because that's UB, my hands are tied, I must ruin the code, there's no other way."
thayne 6 days ago [-]
On hardware that doesn't support it, misaligned loads could be compiled to multiple loads and shifts. Probably not great for performance, and it doesn't work if you need it to be atomic, but it isn't impossible.
IshKebab 6 days ago [-]
That is only really possible if you know the pointer is misaligned at compile time (which does happen, e.g. for packed structs). The examples in the article are for runtime misalignment. It would be crazy to generate code so that every function checked if every access was aligned at runtime.
(Note the normal way to handle that if the hardware doesn't actually support it is for the access to trap and then the OS or firmware emulates it.)
gizmo686 6 days ago [-]
That still requires detecting when a misaligned load happens.
account42 6 days ago [-]
For x86 SSE there are aligned instructions that will trap on unaligned access.
greysphere 6 days ago [-]
The first example is dereferencing an integer pointer. That is a valid operation. Now if that pointer isn't valid (and being unaligned is one of many reasons it could be invalid) then calling the function with that invalid pointer will be UB.
An honest discussion would be something more like 'dereferencing pointers can lead to UB on invalid pointers. Here are N examples of that. Maybe avoid using pointers. Maybe consider how other languages avoid pointers. Maybe these shouldn't be UB and instead some other class of error.' And then even more honest discussion would present the upsides of having pointers and the upsides of having these errors be UB.
Instead, the article (and your comment) take this valid operation and presents it as invalid. Imagine you're a new programmer, you are just starting to wrap your head around pointers and you stumble across this article. You see the first example and it looks exactly what you would expect a dereference to look like. But the article claims it's wrong, and now you're confused. So you dig into the article more closely and are exposed to all these terms like UB, alignment, type coercion etc and come away more confused and scared and disinclined to understand pointers. This is classic FUD. This is a technique to manipulate, not educate.
Pointers have pros and cons. UB has pros and cons. Let's try to educate people about them.
stevenhuang 6 days ago [-]
There is an important distinction here to the technical meaning of UB that is lost to many.
UB simply means the operation you are intending to perform has no defined semantic under the ISO C specification. That is all. Understand what this means but do not read further into it. It is easy to read further into this as you have and many do, and come to incorrect conclusions, and think this MUST result in incorrect behaviour, but this is not the claim. The claim is rather than once you write UB, you are no longer writing C the language with a defined spec, and that any manner of degrees of freedom (architecture, toolchain, etc) can now cause your code that was once behaving correctly to now behave incorrectly. That is the danger.
> That is a valid operation. Now if that pointer isn't valid (and being unaligned is one of many reasons it could be invalid) then calling the function with that invalid pointer will be UB.
This is incorrect. The moment you express this in source code, it is already UB wrt to the C abstract machine.
6.3.2.3. 755 If the resulting pointer is not correctly aligned for the pointed-to type, the behavior is undefined.
The important distinction is to KNOW this is still UB; whether the operation yields the expected behaviour on your platform and architecture is completely a separate question.
The reason this is of utmost important is because the C compiler operates on the C abstract machine.
If you violate language invariants, the compiler can--keyword can--emit WRONG code and it will be CORRECT to do so because C unfortunately allows it to. When this happens it's silent and deadly and it's a pain to debug. The point of all this seeming language lawyering is not FUD, it is genuine frustration with these footguns of the language that we are trying to share with others. Understanding UB correctly really is what separates those that know C and those that "know" C.
Things will work and then they won't. This can be fine for most cases but not fine for others. If you use C in 2026 you need to understand this.
> come away more confused and scared
This is the correct take. One aught to be more confused and scared after learning about UB; the language simply leaves things under-specified and it is up to the developer to understand they are engaging in UB.
Once UB is acknowledged, one aught to impress upon themselves the software they build is dependent ever more on the whims of their particular compiler (clang/gcc), compiler flags (optimizations), architecture, and runtime environment.
greysphere 6 days ago [-]
Maybe I'm misunderstanding. Here is what I'm trying to say.
"Accessing an object which is not correctly aligned" - this is UB
"As an example of this, take this code: ..." - this (code) is not UB.
Is this incorrect somehow?
You could interpret the second sentence as 'under the assumption of an unaligned pointer, let's look at what this seemingly innocuous (and correct) code does.'
But that's not what they did. They presented that code as if it's incorrect (following the whole premise of the article 'Everything in c is UB'). That's what the whole article does, they take a topic with real concerns, then present 'normal' code, and then imply the code is the issue (and therefore the language), not the premise.
You know what would be better, show an example that clearly shows the complete path for the premise to the issue. Ie show some code that generates an unaligned pointer and then uses it. Why did the author not do that? Surprise, because it's actually pretty hard to write code that's 'guaranteed' unaligned behavior.
int foo[10];
int *bar = (int *)(((int)&foo) + 1);
Is this unaligned access? You don't know because you don't know the size of int. (Not to mention it looks ridiculous. By only showing 'reasonable' code as the example, the article suppresses the common 'uh just don't do that' criticism.)
And in fact the ambiguity of alignments and sizes is the whole point - they are given the privilege/footgun of being undefined in c so that compilers are easier to write. It's very debatable if this was/is a good idea, but that's where the debate should be, not illusorily ascribed to derefing pointers.
If I'm misunderstanding, please let me know. Specifically, if you're claiming (1) either the literal code in the first box of the article is UB, or (2) please write some literal code that is UB in the vein of the first claim of the article. I think that would help me bridge the gap that we seem to be having.
stevenhuang 5 days ago [-]
Edit: I think one part of the confusion is we were addressing different parts of the first example of the article. You were referencing the int foo(..) snippet (which I agree has no UB), but I was referencing the parse_packet() snippet (which has UB by construction), which was also part of the first example :).
You are beginning to understand. Yes, surprisingly, it is (1) that is being claimed.
The mere expression is alone UB. Yes, you read that right. In source code, it's already UB. Why? Because the ISO spec defined UB that way. But you see, what this means in practice ie whether "it works" is an entirely separate question and would be specific to toolchain, hardware, runtime, the alignment of the pointer in question, blah blah.
There is nuance here, and that's why this topic is debated to death, because it's hard to explain and it is genuinely complex.
When people say something is UB, they mean to say that the behaviour is undefined--wrt to ISO C.
The behaviour that actually matters IS defined wrt toolchain, hardware, runtime, alignment of pointer in question.
But that's exactly it--the latter is not what we mean when we say something is UB, when we say something is UB we are talking about the ISO C spec. The important follow up question then, when knowingly invoking UB, is to ensure your environment is "correct", because you have now crossed into realms entirely out of the auspices of the ISO C spec. Ergo, you are now in UB land; what you thought was the foundation of your codebase, the ISO C spec, has now turned into quicksand.
It is this implied undocumented dependence on factors external to the source code that is a huge source of bugs and surprisal.
So take this example from the article. Yes, it is UB by construction.
(edit: i copied the wrong fragment initially -- if you were talking about the int foo(const int* p) fragment, yes that block is not by construction UB)
bool parse_packet(const uint8_t\* bytes) {
const int\* magic_intp = (const int*)bytes; // UB!
int magic_raw = foo(magic_intp); // Probably crashes on SPARC.
int magic = ntohl(magic_raw); // this is fine, at least.
[…]
}
Why?
> Because the compiler is not obligated to generate assembly instructions that work on unaligned pointers. Because it’s UB.
Does it actually work though? It might and it might not: there is simply no guarantee from the language. But that's all it says. It may very well work on your arch and platform and toolchain, indefinitely. But again circling back, for code written like this to be so brittle, that is why UB is to be avoided.
And to your point:
> that's where the debate should be, not illusorily ascribed to derefing pointers.
But that is where the debate is. People just do not understand what UB actually means. The article is correct: everything in C is UB. The takeaway is not that, therefore all C code is irredeemably broken (well, to some people it does mean that, anywho..). The takeaway is that most C code IS in fact more delicate than one may originally believe, because of the fact ISO C is under-specified, to allow for specialization dependent on toolchain/arch/hardware/what have you etc.
So it is incumbent on the developer when writing C to correctly acknowledge when they are invoking UB, and to do so intentionally with the awareness that things may just randomly break one day.
greysphere 5 days ago [-]
Thanks, yes I think we had some confusion on the foo() vs parse() and I was referring to foo().
But even for the parse() example, the issue is the aliasing rules (and not the alignment - though that could still be an issue depending on input!) Aliasing isn't even mentioned in the article. Instead the example presents this thing 'people do all the time' and identifies it 'UB' without even identifying the actual issue.
On its own I could forgive the former, making a precise example is tricky (particularly with alignment issues). But this is repeated: milliseconds() is characterized 'UB' because it's inputs could be outside the representable range. Again the function is not UB, the inputs can potentially trigger UB.
Then the function pointer example obfuscates the assignment (fine) with the call (ub). Despite the red herring statement 'NULL compares unequal to any object or function' as the example assigns a function _pointer_ which can be NULL. The honest example of the statement is:
void foo() = NULL;
which won't even compile because it violates the thing that was just said (among other reasons). The UB is the call below and has nothing to do with equality with NULL.
The repeated pattern of say one thing, show an example that's 'reasonable' and implies that it's related to what was just said, and from that invalid relation conclude that everything is UB in C feels dishonest (particularly when it's so easy to talk about UB in C honestly because there is so much to be legitimately concerned about!)
I appreciate your and your advocacy about UB in C, and I think I agree with most of your points about it and they worth discussing. That's why the article itself is frustrating to me, we don't need to be tricksy when talking about UB, it's already tricky enough!
stevenhuang 5 days ago [-]
Yes, I sympathize with you that it's tricky enough. I didn't find the first example with foo() as the author trying deliberately to be tricksy (ie saying the snippet itself is UB by construction), but I certainly see how it can be read that way. It again lends to how hard all of this is to explain!
One thing though, for parse() not only is it violating strict aliasing, it is also indeed violating alignment requirements.
To quote the standard again:
> 6.3.2.3. 755 If the resulting pointer is not correctly aligned for the pointed-to type, the behavior is undefined.
6 days ago [-]
pjc50 6 days ago [-]
UB based on input can be an exploit vector.
layer8 6 days ago [-]
Unvalidated input can always be an exploit vector.
Ygg2 6 days ago [-]
Except in C, validation of user input can in itself be an exploit vector.
layer8 6 days ago [-]
That’s true in other languages as well. Any programmatic task can end up being an exploit vector.
pjc50 6 days ago [-]
No? That's the whole point of formal verification?
You can even kind of retrofit this to C. The classic example is "sel4". You just need a set of proofs that the code doesn't trigger UB. This ends up being much larger and more complicated than the C itself.
rocketrascal 6 days ago [-]
You can fail to verify something which you actually wanted to verify (i.e you made a proof of something else instead of the thing that mattered). See WPA2 KRACK as an example.
Ygg2 6 days ago [-]
Yeah, but only in C* can those errors end up as more UB.
* terms and limits may apply.
eru 4 days ago [-]
Many other languages also have UB. But almost none is as trigger happy as C and C++ are.
greybeard69 6 days ago [-]
Turtles all the way down.
account42 6 days ago [-]
Yes, this article is pretty much the definition of FUD.
bestouff 6 days ago [-]
The problem of UB is not really that it may crash in some architecture. The real problem is that the compiler expects UB code to NOT happen, so if you write UB code anyway the compiler (and especially the optimizer) is allowed to translate that to anything that's convenient for its happy path. And sometimes that "anything" can be really unexpected (like removing big chunks of code).
inkysigma 6 days ago [-]
One example along this path as an example is that every function must either terminate or have a side effect. I don't think one has bitten me yet but I could completely see how you accidentally write some kind of infinite loop or recursion and the function gets deleted. Also, bonus points for tail recursion so this bug might only show up with a higher optimization level if during debug nothing hit the infinite loop.
marcosdumay 6 days ago [-]
There is that famous example where when you write an infinite loop last thing in your main, a function that you never called runs instead.
account42 6 days ago [-]
Infinite loop without side effects == program stuck and not responding on user input and not outputting anything. That's not something a useful program will ever want to do.
Certhas 6 days ago [-]
Not true, C++ made it so trivial infinite loops are not UB because it turns out they do have legitimate uses.
Yes, the C++ committee has been making some stupid decisions lately. This is not the only one.
Low level platform-specific code that needs to hot spin until an interrupt happens can use assembly for that part which it will need to do for the interrupt handler anyway.
TuxSH 6 days ago [-]
You don't even need to use assembly for this, the wait for interrupt typically involves side effects.
xigoi 6 days ago [-]
The problem is when you accidentally write an infinite loop. In a different language, you run the code, see that it gets stuck and fix it. In C, the compiler may delete the function, making it hard to realize what is happening.
account42 6 days ago [-]
This is not a problem that C or C++ programmers actually encounter, ever.
I'll help. A call to `stpcpy` that ignores the return value can be swapped with a call to the (more likely to be optimized) `strcpy`. Since that's infinite recursion, and there is no forward progress, it's undefined behavior and anything goes.
This isn't just theory, it actually broke things in practice for me.
rssoconnor 5 days ago [-]
Naming an externally linked function with the prefix "str" is by itself UB since that prefix is reserved for <string.h>.
ncruces 5 days ago [-]
Right. I am doing a standard library replacement, and forgot I needed to compile freestanding. Oops. My bad.
So `str` and `mem` are reserved. But then so are `to` and `is` (by <ctype.h>). Just forget about having a function named `is_valid_user`.
And so are `mtx_`, `cnd_`, `thrd_`, `atomic_`, `memory_`...
C does allow unconditional infinite loops (e.g. "while (1) { }" isn't UB) but still is UB if the controlling expression isn't constant (e.g. "while (two < 10) { }" is UB if two is a variable less than 10)
eru 6 days ago [-]
Yes, a crash is about the most benign UB: at least it's highly visible.
In worse scenarios, your programme will silently continue with garbage, or format your hard disk or give attackers the key to the kingdom.
1718627440 6 days ago [-]
Yes, that is a problem, but this is also the most useful feature and reason for UB. People that suggest to just define it or make it unspecified, miss, that the compiler being able to remove whole parts of a program is the point. When I write code, that is UB for certain inputs, it is because I do not intend the program to have any behaviour for these inputs. I do want the compiler to optimize those away or do anything that effects from the behaviour of the other defined cases. It is deeply satisfying to add some conditions triggering log strings and see that they do not occur in the binary, because they can be only reached via UB.
rando1234 6 days ago [-]
The point in the article that 'It's not about optimisations' really got my attention. I've previously done some work where we wrote an analysis pass under the assumption that it executed last in the transformation pipeline and this was needed for correctness. The assumption was that since no further optimisations happened it was safe. Now I'm not so sure...
account42 6 days ago [-]
That's a feature, not a problem.
anilakar 6 days ago [-]
Removing code paths that the programmer has explicitly laid out in the source code should be made a hard compile error unless the operation has been tagged with an attribute (anyone who wants to add the unsafe keyword to C? ).
Another commenter suggested using LLMs, but I disagree. Having clangd emit warning squiggles for unchecked operations (like signed addition) would be a good start.
flohofwoe 6 days ago [-]
> Removing code paths that the programmer has explicitly laid out in the source code should be made a hard compile error unless the operation has been tagged with an attribute (anyone who wants to add the unsafe keyword to C? ).
Dead code elimination is essential for performance, especially when using templates (this is basically what enables the fabled "zero cost abstraction" because complex template code may generate a lot of 'inactive' code which needs to be removed by the optimizer).
The actual issue is that the compiler is free to eliminate code paths after UB, but that's also not trivial to fix (and some optimizations are actually enabled by manually injecting UB (like `__builtin_unreachable()` which can make a measurable difference in the right places).
1718627440 6 days ago [-]
> The actual issue is that the compiler is free to eliminate code paths after UB
Not, that the compiler can also emit code paths before UB, as UB is a property of the whole program, not just of a single statement.
peterfirefly 6 days ago [-]
> free to eliminate code paths after UB
before.
amoss 6 days ago [-]
Dead code elimination is run multiple times, including after other optimizations. So code that is not initially dead may become dead after propagating other information. Converting dead code into an error condition would make most generic code that is specialized for a particular context illegal.
4gotunameagain 6 days ago [-]
This is trickier than it initially seems. Using preprocessor directives to include or exclude swaths of code is a very common thing, and implementing a compiler error as you described would break the building of countless C codebases.
gpderetta 6 days ago [-]
Consider:
enum op_t{ add, mul };
int exec(op_t op, int a, int b) {
if(op == add) { return a+b; }
if(op == mul) { return a\*b; }
}
c = exec(add, a,b);
Should be the compiler be prevented from inlining exec and constant-propagating op and removing the mul branch? What about if a and b are constants and the addition itself is optimized away?
parasti 6 days ago [-]
I have never in my 20 years of writing C heard so much about undefined behavior as I have in the past 6 months on Hacker News. It has never entered the conversation. You write the code. If it doesn't work, you debug it and apply a fix or a workaround. Why does the idea of undefined behavior in C get to the front page so consistently?
summa_tech 6 days ago [-]
Hacker News is still skewed towards people interested in programming languages (as opposed to actually programming). Probably some sort of Y-combinator Lisp heritage. There's also a persistent minority of CS grads who think that developing / using new programming languages is the most fascinating thing in the world, and some of them hold on to that thought.
It's reasonable that such people would also be interested in design aspects of languages, and UB in C is in that field. Though I would argue that a lot of it was originally accommodating old CPU architectures without compromising performance too badly, and about as much a "design choice" as wheels being round...
defgeneric 6 days ago [-]
There was also a period around the mid-2010s where I had the strong impression that lots of younger ambitious devs were fanatically promoting rust against C's undefined behavior mostly because it gave them a way to differentiate themselves from older seniors within organizations. (And I say this not as an old C diehard, but as someone who watched more than one colleague position himself as the 'rust guy'.)
simonask 6 days ago [-]
Excuse me, what? I was writing both C and C++ 20 years ago, and UB was a huge part of the conversation (and the curriculum) back then as well.
There were a few high-profile "scandals" around GCC 3.2 (IIRC) because the compiler finally started much more aggressively using UB in optimizations, which was a reason that lots of people stayed on GCC 2.95 for a very long time. GCC 3.2 came out in 2002.
parasti 6 days ago [-]
Started in 2005. Never ever did anyone complain about UB in my years of writing C code and patching other people's C code. I knew it exists - as a spec quirk. (Admittedly, never wrote a compiler and never used anything except gcc and clang.)
hedora 5 days ago [-]
“More aggressively using UB” isn’t the right way to think about it.
In the C ecosystem, the compiler gets to define what UB means. They broke compatibility with their previous UB semantics, then blamed the language spec.
simonask 5 days ago [-]
> In the C ecosystem, the compiler gets to define what UB means.
It really doesn't though. The current revision of the ISO/IEC 9899 standards document gets to define it, nobody else.
hedora 3 days ago [-]
No; that says what things have undefined behavior in the language spec.
The compiler / os / hw platform are free to define the behavior of those things. Leaving them undefined at the language spec is the mechanism that allows them to be defined by the underlying system. C has worked this way since its initial release.
keyle 6 days ago [-]
Computers used to be cool; now they're dangerous.
Every company keep harping on about safety and being exposed (being in the news): so the narrative against 'unsafe' is up the wazoo.
The new world is basically a bunch of city dwellers who haven't seen raw nature and you show them a lawn mower, they freak out. Blades that spin?!?!?! Madness!!
pjc50 6 days ago [-]
If everything is going to be dependent on computers, it's probably important that they work and remain under their owner's control rather than whichever NK or Chinese hacker group gets to them first.
Can't talk about C without CVE.
keyle 6 days ago [-]
Yeah, npm, all the yaml state machines, & now MCP Gemini --yolo entered the chat.
If you think C is the problem, you'll come to the eventual conclusion that humans are the problems, and greed. Don't hate the player, hate the game etc.
C was invented so you don't have to write assembly. It wasn't invented to expose devices to billions of other devices.
Etheryte 6 days ago [-]
Because the production environment might be a completely different architecture, these details matter a lot. Works on my machine is not useful if your actual target is a small embedded system on top of a cell tower in the middle of nowhere. Granted, most people don't work on stuff like that, I imagine the vast majority of devs here are web developers, but even still it's an interesting discussion even if you haven't run into it yourself. Maybe even more so in that case.
spacedcowboy 6 days ago [-]
Um, as an embedded developer, you don't develop the code to run on your machine, you develop it to run on the same target as you expect to deploy to, sitting on your desk next to you.
I have lots of my code running day-in, day-out on literally hundreds of millions of machines. The approach to "getting it working" is exactly OP's.
I'll admit to being pretty defensive and anal in checking values and return-codes (more so than most, I suspect), and I'm a firm believer in KISS principles in software engineering ("solving hard problems with complicated code is easy, solving them with simple, understandable algorithms is the hard bit") but generally there's no real difference in approach to the code I write to work on my workstation, and the code I write to work in the field.
dmpk2k 6 days ago [-]
Embedded developers often suffer under archaic toolchains. There's plenty of reasons for that, but one of them is UB: a newer version of the compiler can completely change an embedded program's behaviour.
spacedcowboy 6 days ago [-]
Where I was it was quite the opposite. The bloody compiler guys kept on updating the compiler, and we were required to use the OS-delivered one. Since we were often using pre-release OS's, the toolchain could change every week.
It did make you write robust and defensive code, though...
bregma 6 days ago [-]
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy
You've probably been churning out possibly malformed code for years. Now you're becoming aware of your shortcomings. This is usually considered the transition from intermediate- to senior-level programmer.
rramadass 6 days ago [-]
Because most of the people who post/write these articles do not actually know the C language specification nor understand its design.
Understanding three important concepts properly in C allows one to easily identify what can/cannot result in UB viz. 1) Expressions 2) Statements 3) Sequence Points and "Single Update Rule". It is not that hard at all.
Exactly, you write for your target, not some imaginary spec. The spec is only as useful as to predict what your target roughly does, it's not normative.
Compilers might have bugs where the spec is supposed to work but it doesn't, and many extensions without standard equivalents, or implementation-specific behaviour where undefined things in the standard do get assigned a meaningful outcome.
SomeoneOnTheWeb 6 days ago [-]
I have the opposite experience, so many subtle bugs that bite you only on specific scenarios, so much that I can't count.
sethev 6 days ago [-]
I wonder if it’s just the colorful metaphors and an opportunity to bring out examples of surprising behavior. Plus it’s a topic that can always stir up debates.
The real answer is that proponents of languages like C seem to completely disregard the dangers/difficulty of hitting/difficulty of fixing UB. Proponents of languages like Rust overstate it instead. Pointless wars/drama is fun to read and gets clicks.
AndriyKunitsyn 6 days ago [-]
So, you never iterated past an array, you never used after a free(), you never tried doing i = ++i + ++i; ?
aldanor 6 days ago [-]
If there's no UBs then what will we programmers do, there won't be enough to debug and fix?
benj111 6 days ago [-]
1. It's been talked about for much longer than that.
2. You don't really appreciate the issue. Signed integer overflow is undefined. If you check for that overflow after the fact the compiler can, and demonstrably has pretended that the overflow can't happen and optimised away your overflow check.
You may not even come across that failure mode to know to 'fix' it. And good luck finding the issue unless you know about UB and what the compiler can and will do in such situations.
jakobnissen 6 days ago [-]
I would guess that the continued success of Rust have shown that we don’t have to live with the user-hostility of C in order to write system programs. Therefore, people are understandably growing less and less patient with C and its unending bullshit.
Although I haven’t noticed a spike the last 6 months, just a slowly increasing realization that C isn’t fit for humans and should go the way of asbest: Don’t use it for anything new, and remove it where it already exists, unless doing so would be too expensive or disruptive.
benj111 6 days ago [-]
I don't think C is hostile. C has UB for good reason. The problem is UB has been hijacked by the compiler writers for performance gains.
Personally I like C because you should have a good idea of what it's going to do. Other languages feel like a black box, and I start having to fight them far too often. But I say that as a hacker of low level stuff, not as someone who's paid and working on higher level stuff, so that is probably a niche view.
hedora 5 days ago [-]
There was a similar rush of articles like this a few years ago.
tl;dr: C defined language semantics, and leaves some behavior undefined. Each system that C is ported to has the ability to define the behavior however it wants.
This blows the mind of PL folks every decade or so.
It’s cool that we have portable methods and formal language semantics for stuff like memory fences and atomics now, but that sort of thing worked fine in C back in 1970 (or else unix would not have worked). You just needed to read the target machine’s manual when porting stuff.
The modern version is arguably better, but also arguably worse. Does anyone else remember when the JVM got this stuff wrong, making safe multithreaded code impossible, and then later had to break compatibility with the language spec?
You could claim that we can’t trust hardware folks to get instruction semantics right (this is demonstrably true), but duplicating and slightly modifying the specs in your language spec doesn’t actually fix the underlying hardware bugs.
Yeah, getting old… I’ll go find a cloud to yell at.
account42 6 days ago [-]
There are a lot of Rust/whatever hipsters here that have defined their whole identity around hating C and C++.
virtualritz 6 days ago [-]
Like the author of the article, I write C/C++ since 30 years. Mostly close-to-the-metal code around computer graphics. Actually: wrote.
After switching to Rust five years ago I agree with all the Rust hipsters as far as disliking those languages go.
I just don't talk about it a lot. If every Rust person I know that was a C/C++ developer before was as outspoken about what they think of the latter, you'd see that these people are a majority.
We're just old hands who like to use stuff that works. And most of us don't get attached to code or languages.
It's also difficult to admint to yourself that you were never in command of a language as far as UB/other footguns go, as much as you thought. Or ever, for your enire career. For me that self-realization about C/C++ (enabled by Rust) was a turning point.
Lately you can read about the dichotomy re. AI use.
I.e. developers who define them themselves through what they build/ideas are embracing LLMs; for what they can do.
I.e.: I am what I build.
Whereas developers for whom software engineering is a craft that defines them hate them openly.
I.e.: I am how I build.
Now this seems to suggest to me that maybe Rust developers who openly hate C/C++ squarely belong to the latter group whereas the silent ones belong to the former. It's builders vs programmers. Just different world views.
Also you can not dislike something and still not speak about it. Because you decided to not care.
pjmlp 6 days ago [-]
As C++ hipster since 1992, the problem is really C and any language that includes its semantics as subsets.
Just like TypeScript can't get rid of JavaScript WATs.
hnarn 6 days ago [-]
Ironically, by stereotyping ”Rust hipsters” you are painting yourself out as a stereotype as well. Knee-jerk comments like yours add nothing to the discussion. Rust exists for a reason, it solves real problems, but it’s not suitable for everything. These are indisputable facts and by discarding every mention of Rust as coming from ”hipsters” with no understanding, you are doing the exact same thing that you would accuse them of. ”Use Rust for everything” and ”Rust is useless for everything” are equally vapid and meaningless statements designed for nothing but trolling and showing ignorance.
account42 6 days ago [-]
[flagged]
kzrdude 6 days ago [-]
After the rise of Rust, it has gained more visibility? But some people were interested in C in this way long ago too, I used to hang out in some godforsaken irc channel where people competed in out-pedanticing each other over the C standard.
I trust your historical C usage was more productive than that..
debugnik 6 days ago [-]
As much as I agree with the intro, these examples aren't good and the overall article is just a veil for pushing LLM coding.
gblargg 6 days ago [-]
Agreed. One after another these are standard things you avoid when writing portable code (or don't need, like accessing the object at address 0). They come across like from someone who wants to write whatever they want and have it work the same on everything. To make it into a language that allows this would remove its advantage of being able to write to the platform when you want to.
boxed 6 days ago [-]
Not good how? Are they TRUE? If so that's super bad.
IshKebab 6 days ago [-]
They are true but I agree it's not a great article. C has an unending list of UB and given the title I was expecting a more comprehensive survey, but they actually just picked a few that are both fairly well known and not very interesting.
thomashabets2 6 days ago [-]
Author here.
As I stated:
> The following is not an attempt at enumerating all the UB in the world. It’s merely making the case that UB is everywhere, and if nobody can do it right, how is it even fair to blame the programmer? My point is that ALL nontrivial C/C++ code has UB.
It's about that point, not about how to avoid it. Because you can't.
HelloNurse 6 days ago [-]
Some of the examples are somewhat formally true in theory and bullshit in practice; some are quite hallucinatory.
- Creating a potentially troublesome misaligned int pointer is a precisely localized and completely explicit user mistake, not something that just happens because it's C.
- Passing signed char to character classification functions that expect an unsigned char (disguised as an int) is a very specific dumb user error. The C standard could specify that all negative inputs, including EOF and invalid signed char values, are classified as not belonging to the character class, but I doubt the current undefined behaviour in isxdigit() etc. implementations ever went beyond accepting invalid inputs.
- Casting floating point values to integer values in general requires taking care of whether the FP values are small enough to be represented and what to do with NaN and Inf values: not the language's responsibility. C offers a toolbox of tests, not ready-made application specific error handling.
- Expecting C to handle "address zero" in physical memory in ways that conflict with NULL in source code denotes a complete lack of understanding of what a program is. Where stuff in an executable is loaded in memory, in the rare cases when it matters, can surely be affected with platform specific extensions, possibly at the level of linker commands with nothing appearing in the C source code.
thomashabets2 6 days ago [-]
Author here.
So I see your counter points are all "so just don't do that, then".
And the point of my post is that this particular "just don't do that, then" has never been achieved by humans.
If if there's no example of a program without these bugs in a language, then I do think it's fair to blame the language. A knife with 16 blades and no handle.
> Expecting C to handle "address zero" in physical memory in ways that conflict with NULL in source code denotes a complete lack of understanding of what a program is.
Like the post says, it's rare that programmers actually want a pointer to memory address zero. But in my experience most programmers who even encounter that have this "complete lack of understanding", as you put it.
HelloNurse 6 days ago [-]
"Just don't do that" is the correct approach to errors, even when they are easy to overlook and the programming language provides many opportunities for mistakes.
For example, you seem to underestimate how wrong placing negative values in a signed char is: ordinary character encodings do not use negative codes, so either those negative values are not characters and they have no business being treated as such, or something strange and experimental is going on.
thomashabets2 6 days ago [-]
> "Just don't do that" is the correct approach to errors
We have 54 years of empirical data that literally nobody can follow this approach and reach UB-freeness. To stick to the plan is more like the in-debt gambler who just needs to work their system for a little longer, and they'll become rich.
By this logic we don't need any traffic rules other than "just don't crash or hit anyone". And we can aspire to an absolute dictatorship, all we need to do is "just" choose the benevolent one.
Of course we should always try to not make mistakes. But given more than half a century of empirical data that nobody has been able to avoid UB, ever, it takes quite some hubris to say "but it might work for us".
> you seem to underestimate how wrong placing negative values in a signed char is
Shrug. You don't make that mistake. There are thousands of mistakes like it, especially in C or C++.
Of course "don't do that". That is not the same as "So just don't do that!". The former is good advice. The latter is one of a million rules, and to expect even experts (see OpenBSD) to never make a mistake is unrealistic to say the least.
While, for the purpose of avoiding gratuitous mistakes, C is a serious disadvantage compared to less low-level languages, your discussion of UB pitfalls in C is aimed at a strawman.
First of all, traffic rules are good, and similar to good C programming rules: check number value ranges when there is a chance of casting or overflow, check Inf and NaN floating point values, declare alignment strategically (e.g. in all memory allocations) to avoid misaligned pointers and variables, and so on. Such rules have alternatives and exceptions and must not be part of the language.
Second, nobody needs perfection and "UB-freeness": it is reasonable to assume that many cases of UB won't be a problem, either because a library will be used correctly and they won't happen, or because the C implementation is neither weird nor hostile and they will be as benign as defined or implementation defined behaviour, or simply because we avoid doing something known to be inexact or hard to write correctly.
Practical programming requires knowing the relevant rules for what one is doing and learning new ones by making, diagnosing and overcoming mistakes; not omniscience, and definitely not the unfounded feeling of omniscience and unlimited resources that LLMs can give.
EDIT: I insist on the signed char example because it would be terribly wrong (processing who-knows-what as if it were a sequence of characters) even without undefined behaviour, even in different languages.
thomashabets2 5 days ago [-]
> Second, nobody needs perfection and "UB-freeness"
Sure. You only care about the ones that manifest security issues, stability issues, or other corruption. But of course those change over time as compilers change.
So while far from every instance of UB will manifest in a problem, every single one has the potential to, by a low percentage. They're all tiny liabilities that add up.
> because the C implementation is neither weird nor hostile
Some people definitely were screaming at GCC for being hostile when it removed the NULL check in the kernel:
int foo = bar->baz;
if (!bar) {
return -EINVAL;
}
> the unfounded feeling of omniscience and unlimited resources that LLMs can give.
I definitely don't have that. I'm not saying LLMs find all bugs (now or in the future), nor that they are an unlimited resource.
I'm just saying that for finding UB and subtle bugs, they find orders of magnitude more, especially in C and C++.
I am not saying they find a strict superset of bugs, compared to a human. But take me running this against cosmopolitan libc: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48206377. It took me basically zero human time to spin it off, it took a couple of minutes (5.5 in xhigh effort) to run, and found 5-10 cases of UB, one of which I think is a user visible parsing error of SSH keys. Another is a set of double-free, which is definitely a thing that gets exploited over and over.
Would I have found these, in an unknown-to-me codebase no less, given manual source code reading all day? Of course not. Would I have found it with the likes of UBSAN? jart claims to have used it (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48205545), and apparently didn't.
LLMs are just one of the tools to use. A tool that does better than any tool or human has done in the last half century.
> I insist on the signed char example because it would be terribly wrong
The char situation is terrible in C. It's perfectly safe to hold bytes in a char, signed char, and unsigned char, and convert between them. But then integer promotion rules combine with the historical choice of having isdigit take an int to break things.
If isdigit took a char, of any signedness, then there wouldn't be a problem. But that EOF ruins it.
> processing who-knows-what as if it were a sequence of characters
A "char" hasn't been "a character" in any meaningful sense in a long long time. Or rather, "a character" is not a code point or grapheme cluster. For byte processing, since they cast perfectly fine, it's fine. Or do you have some interesting example?
dminik 6 days ago [-]
Just don't fall bro. It's that easy. No railings required.
jb1991 6 days ago [-]
Some of the C++ code in this article has not been idiomatic in over a decade, and would be considered a code smell today. The language has evolved into quite a different language than when it was first created. As soon as I saw all of those raw pointers and direct pointer access, it was clear that at least part of this article should be taken with a grain of salt.
The other obvious issue with the overall perspective is that C and C++ are being thrown together directly as if somehow they’re nearly the same language, but they are really very far apart nowadays.
debugnik 6 days ago [-]
I was about to call out that the code is supposed to be C and not C++, but I double checked and I realised it actually says std::atomic<int>, not atomic_int!
jb1991 6 days ago [-]
Exactly, this is very old C++ on display in this article. It’s certainly not as safe as a language like Rust, but quite a lot of undefended behavior and things that will shoot yourself in the foot have been changed over the last 10 years.
Most C++ today will be immediately obvious and not accidentally mixed up with C.
pjmlp 5 days ago [-]
Unfortunely most C++ today keeps making use of C idioms, including at companies with seat at WG21 table.
5 days ago [-]
6 days ago [-]
maple3142 6 days ago [-]
Is this a correct understanding of UB in C?
A program P has a set of inputs A that do not trigger UB, and a complementary set of inputs B that do trigger UB.
A correct compiler compiles P into an executable P'. For all inputs in A, P' should behave the same as P.
However, for any input in B, the is absolutely no requirements on the behavior of P'.
simonask 6 days ago [-]
Intuitively yes - the program will be compiled as if B-inputs are never passed to the program, and that can include eliminating code that tries to detect B-inputs.
mbrock 6 days ago [-]
This is a description of an imaginary compiler, evoked by the ANSI/ISO standards documents, which has never existed and will never exist. To understand what the program will do, you just have to understand the compiler behavior on your target platforms. A helpful intuition pump is: imagine the ANSI/ISO specifications simply do not exist; now what? Well, you just continue your engineering practice, the way you would for any of the myriad languages that never even had a post hoc standards document.
simonask 6 days ago [-]
> just
That word is carrying a lot of weight here. Compilers are unbelievably complex these days, and it's impossible for any one human to fully understand the entire compilation process, including the effects of any arbitrary combination of compiler flags.
Any assumptions you have about what the compiler does in the face of UB will collapse on the next patch release of that compiler, or the moment somebody changes the compiler flags, or the moment somebody tries to compile the code for a slightly different OS, not to mention architecture.
There is no other way to understand what C compilers do than reading the standard.
mbrock 6 days ago [-]
Yet the standard does not tell you what the compilers do.
Linux works on a wide variety of platforms. It also relies on those platforms behaving predictably with respect to what the standard leaves undefined.
This description of ISO UB as a totally insane wonderland of random, malevolent semantics just doesn't describe reality.
saagarjha 6 days ago [-]
Up until the compilers do something to your code that you don’t understand.
mbrock 6 days ago [-]
yeah then I have to learn how it works and what it assumes and how I can control it and maybe switch to a more well behaved compiler if it's truly insane
JonChesterfield 6 days ago [-]
Not imaginary. Eliding checks on nullptr and integer overflow were both implemented, shipped, miscompiled the linux kernel and grew flags to disable them. I expect there are more if one goes looking.
mbrock 6 days ago [-]
Well yeah that just means some aspects of the imaginary compiler were in some configurations approximated by some historical compiler versions and were in some cases rejected by the community (which cares about sane semantics even for behavior left undefined by ANSI/ISO) and in some cases left in as defaults but made trivially configurable for anyone who wants to define the undefined behavior.
Retr0id 6 days ago [-]
GCC -O1 and clang -O1 will both optimize this function under the assumption that inputs that cause signed integer overflow are never passed:
int will_overflow(int a, int b) {
int sum = a + b;
if (b > 0 && sum < a)
return 1;
return 0;
}
mbrock 6 days ago [-]
Right, good example, and both GCC and Clang offer well understood parameters for deciding, per compilation unit, what behavior you want for signed overflow (-fwrapv, -fno-strict-overflow, etc), so in reality it's quite far from spooky arbitrary nasal demons.
skydhash 6 days ago [-]
Wouldn’t be better to check both inputs before against the max value of that type instead of actually doing the overflow?
Retr0id 6 days ago [-]
There are lots of better ways of doing this, but knowing why this one is bad/wrong requires the mental model described upthread.
(But also, what you describe would be incorrect, since two <MAX values can add to a value that is >MAX, and overflow)
skydhash 6 days ago [-]
> But also, what you describe would be incorrect, since two <MAX values can add to a value that is >MAX, and overflow
I was maybe unclear. I meant, if you know a sum can introduce overflow (because you have a check right after), why not check the inputs before doing the sum, instead of checking the sum?
mbrock 6 days ago [-]
You can do something like
(y > 0 && x > INT_MAX - y)
|| (y < 0 && x < INT_MIN - y)
and hope the optimizer turns it back into just checking the result. Or you use -fwrapv to concretize the ISO ambiguity and specify the natural two's complement semantics, checking overflow with the classic Hacker's Delight formula;
((x ^ s) & (y ^ s)) < 0
But the best way is to use the intrinsic __builtin_add_overflow or, depending on compiler support, its C23 standardization via <stdckdint.h> and ckd_add etc.
jeroenhd 6 days ago [-]
Every bug is the result of an imaginary computer that doesn't work exactly like my computer does and triggers a bug in my code. The code works on my machine, so this imaginary computer never existed and will never exist.
Signed vs unsigned chars, and the accompanying extension rules, have already bitten me switching between x86/ARM compilers. Confused the hell out of me when I was just starting out with C.
If you're going to interpret C as in "C on amd64, running on Linux 7.0 on an Arrow Lake Intel processor" then yes, you can get away with a lot of UB. That mitigates the problem but doesn't make it go away.
Specifically on x86 where it's assumed that won't cause problems.
pizlonator 6 days ago [-]
The problem is incorrectly assuming that the spec is meaningful in some kind of rigorous way.
It’s not. All that matters is what C compilers actually do and what real C programs expect.
This is a good thing. It creates a culture where the two sides meet each other where they’re at
BearOso 6 days ago [-]
We also have a very limited number of compilers and a small number of prevalent architectures today. As long as you know the behavior of the target compiler and architecture, the behavior is defined, it's just not specified.
pizlonator 5 days ago [-]
This is true.
But why I’m saying has always been true. What has changed is that the effective portability of C and C++ code has increased due to the reduction in number of compilers and arches
JonChesterfield 6 days ago [-]
Well, you can't write malloc in conforming C, which hurts rather more than remembering to write bitcast as memcpy on char pointers.
Doesn't matter though because you aren't writing standards conforming C. You're writing whatever dialect your compilers support, and that's probably (module bugs) much better behaved than the spec suggests.
Or you're writing C++ and way more exposed to the adversarial-and-benevolent compiler experience.
The type aliasing rules are the only ones that routinely cause me much annoyance in C and there's always a workaround, whether if it's the launder intrinsic used to implement C++, the may_alias attribute or in extremis dropping into asm. So they're a nuisance not a blocker.
__0x01 6 days ago [-]
> A problem with this is that in order to confirm the findings, you’ll need an expert human. But generally expert humans are busy doing other things.
The article suggests using LLMs to identify and fix UB. However as per the above, I think the issue is that we need more expert humans.
LLM generated code will eventually contain UB.
EDIT: added "eventually"
flohofwoe 6 days ago [-]
It would already help a lot when the C and C++ standards start to clean up the list of Undefined Behaviour (e.g. there's a lot of nonsense UB currently in the C standard which could easily become Defined Behaviour - like the "file doesn't end in a new-line character" thing):
But don't misunderstand the goal of that: C and C++ will never get rid of UB. The result of dereferencing an invalid pointer is UB, will always remain UB, and really cannot be anything other than UB.
layer8 6 days ago [-]
The easy cases like you cite are also those that don’t cause problems in practice. I’m not sure that would help all that much, other than to slightly reduce internet criticism.
talkin 6 days ago [-]
Fixing easy cases makes the list shorter, so enables more focus on harder cases.
And it also signals that you actually do want to improve, just a little bit of boy scout rule goes a long way.
gpderetta 6 days ago [-]
The issue is that the list is infinite (anything not specified is UB), so actually removing any finite amount of UB from the list won't make it shorter.
(only slightly tongue-in-cheek, I do believe that removing silly things is worthwhile).
1718627440 6 days ago [-]
The list of UB categories and rules is not infinite. The list of UB programs is, as is the list of all non UB programs.
gpderetta 6 days ago [-]
It is not obvious to me that the list of categories is not infinite (unless the final category is "everything else" of course)
1718627440 6 days ago [-]
To be undefined behaviour, it must at least be valid syntax. The syntax is described in a finite document. Also it only gets executed by a finite machine, that has a finite number of finite descriptive documents.
flohofwoe 6 days ago [-]
The list of unspecified behaviour is infinite, but the list of undefined behaviour is well defined and finite ;)
thomashabets2 6 days ago [-]
Author here.
> The article suggests using LLMs to identify and fix UB. However as per the above, I think the issue is that we need more expert humans.
Yup. But the point of the article is that even expert humans cannot do this alone. And as I wrote, LLM+junior won't suffice either. We need LLM+senior experts.
And it's a problem that we have way more existing UB than expert capacity.
Now, will LLMs and experts both miss UB in some cases? Of course. There's no 100% solution. But LLMs, I claim, will find orders of magnitude more, with low false positive, than any expert. Even if these expert humans (like in the OpenBSD case for the two bugs I found, one of which was UB) are given more than three decades to do it.
I didn't even use the best model, complex code target, or time. I just wanted to choose a target that has a high chance of having very good experts already having audited it.
eru 6 days ago [-]
Our LLM powered coding assistance are pretty good at doing lots of busywork that doesn't require all that much smarts. So they can supervise running our UB checks, like Valgrind, and making the linters happy.
lelanthran 6 days ago [-]
> LLM generated code will eventually contain UB.
Yes.
Even in languages other than C (i.e. you will get behaviour that nothing in the input specified).
When LLMs generate code, all languages have UB.
eru 6 days ago [-]
That's a bit silly.
UB means literally no restrictions. So if you standard says 'you have to crash with an error message' that's already no longer UB.
lelanthran 6 days ago [-]
> So if you standard says 'you have to crash with an error message' that's already no longer UB.
Sure. For crashes. But when you instruct an LLM to do something, the output is probablistic, so you may get behviour that is unexpected and/or unwanted.
Like storing security tokens in code. Or nuking the production database.
eru 5 days ago [-]
If you fix the random seed you use for sampling, your LLM is perfectly deterministic.
And there's no requirement for C compilers' UB to be deterministic either.
rurban 6 days ago [-]
Very bad advice. Of course good new LLM's know about UB, but you still need to use ubsan (ie - fsanitize=undefined), and not your LLM.
formerly_proven 6 days ago [-]
Coding agents write unsound Rust any day, too. unsafe impl Send … is much easier than fixing a bad design and it might even work momentarily.
mjs01 6 days ago [-]
Integer promotion seems to be the source of many signed integer overflow UB. Why does C have it? Does integer promotion ever have a good part?
saagarjha 6 days ago [-]
Yes, it simplifies a lot of code that would otherwise be littered with casts.
peterfirefly 6 days ago [-]
Could be fixed by having a nicer casting syntax (like Rust) or by not having so damn many scalar types that are used in practice.
"Explicit casts only" worked fine in Modula-2, which doesn't have as many scalar types.
saagarjha 5 days ago [-]
Yeah most modern languages settle on having fewer types that are used most of the time and don't require as many casts.
Author, if you are reading this, please cite the spec section explaining that this is UB. Dereferencing the produced pointer may be UB, but casting itself is not, since uint8_t is ~ char and char* can be cast to and from any type.
you might try to argue that uint8_t is not necessarily char, and while it is true that implementations of C can exist where CHAR_BIT > 8, but those do not have uint8_t defined (as per spec), so if you have uint8_t, then it is "unsigned char", which makes this cast perfectly safe and defined as far as i can tell. Of course CHAR_BIT is required to be >= 8, so if it is not >8, it is exactly 8. (In any case, whether uint8_t is literally a typedef of unsigned char is implementation-defined and not actually relevant to whether the cast itself is valid -- it is)
raphlinus 6 days ago [-]
The issue is not type punning (itself a very common source of UB), but the fact that the `bytes` pointer might not be int-aligned. The spec is clear that the creation (not just the dereferencing) of an unaligned pointer is UB, see 6.3.2.3 paragraph 7 of the C11 (draft) spec.
Of course, this exchange just demonstrates the larger point, that even a world-class expert in low level programming can easily make mistakes in spotting potential UB.
flohofwoe 6 days ago [-]
> Of course, this exchange just demonstrates the larger point, that even a world-class expert in low level programming can easily make mistakes in spotting potential UB.
A "world-class expert in low level programming" knows that unaligned memory accesses are no problem anymore on most modern CPUs, and that this particular UB in the C standard is bogus and needs to fixed ;)
formerly_proven 6 days ago [-]
… it’s only UB if the pointer is actually misaligned. It’s not possible to tell from these two lines whether that’s the case.
gritzko 6 days ago [-]
C of course is ancient. It remembers the Cambrian explosion of CPU architectures, twelve-bit bytes and everything like that. I wonder if it is possible to codify some pragmatic subset of it that works nicely on currently available CPUs. Cause the author of the piece goes back in time to prove his point (SPARCs and Alphas).
dmitrygr 6 days ago [-]
Fun story: even the latest C spec doesn’t require CHAR_BIT == 8, but it does now codify 2s complement int representation. (IIRC)
eru 6 days ago [-]
For unsigned ints, or also for signed ints?
account42 6 days ago [-]
Two's complement is a representation specifically for signed integers.
dmitrygr 6 days ago [-]
For signed. Unsigned overflow was defined for a while now.
gblargg 6 days ago [-]
And unsigned negation is two's complement negation as well (-u = 0-u).
6 days ago [-]
dmitrygr 6 days ago [-]
That cast is valid. Spec does not guarantee same bit sequence for resulting pointer and source pointer. But as the cast is explicitly allowed, it is not UB. Compiler is free to round the pointer down. Or up. Or even sideways. All ok. Dereferencing it — indeed not ok. But the cast is explicitly allowed and not UB.
Pointer casts changing pointer bit sequences is common on weird platforms (eg: some TI DSPs, PIC, and aarch64+PAC). And it is valid as per spec. Pointer assignment is not required to be the same as memcpy-ing the pointer unto a pointer to another type.
You misunderstood the spec. No promises are made that that cast copies the pointer bit for bit (and thus creates an invalid pointer). Therefore, your objection to invalid pointers is null and void. :)
raphlinus 6 days ago [-]
I'm not assuming anything about bit representations. In this case, the spec language is quite clear and unambiguous.
6.3.2.3 paragraph 7: A pointer to an object type may be converted to a pointer to a different object type. If the resulting pointer is not correctly aligned[footnote 68]) for the referenced type, the behavior is undefined. Otherwise, when converted back again, the result shall compare equal to the original pointer. When a pointer to an object is converted to a pointer to a character type, the result points to the lowest addressed byte of the object. Successive increments of the result, up to the size of the object, yield pointers to the remaining bytes of the object.
This is a subsection of section 6.3 which describes conversions, which include both implicit and conversions from a cast operation. This language is not saying anything about bit representations or derefencing.
I happen to be wearing my undefined behavior shirt at the moment, which lends me an extra layer of authority. I'm at RustWeek in Utrecht, and it's one of my favorite shirts to wear at Rust conferences. But let's say for the sake of argument that you are right and I am indeed misunderstanding the spec. Then the logical conclusion is that it's very difficult for even experienced programmers to agree on basic interpretations of what is and what isn't UB in C.
dmitrygr 6 days ago [-]
I do not see there a promise that the cast will produce an invalid pointer, nor anything prohibiting the compiler from rounding the pointer down, thus producing a valid one. “Converted” does not require bit copy. I don’t see how this interpretation is against any section of the spec.
dwattttt 6 days ago [-]
I also do not see any requirement in the quoted text that the casted pointer be dereferenced before noting "the behavior is undefined".
In practice performing a cast doesn't really do much until you dereference, but without a carve out in the spec, it does really mean "the behavior is undefined".
6 days ago [-]
cyclopeanutopia 6 days ago [-]
> Otherwise, when converted back again, the result shall compare equal to the original pointer.
Doesn't this part exclude the possibility of rounding down?
dmitrygr 6 days ago [-]
No cause that requires initial alignment.
pjc50 6 days ago [-]
> rounding the pointer down, thus producing a valid one
A "valid" pointer to the wrong object?
dmitrygr 6 days ago [-]
Which is ok since it is UB to deref
thomashabets2 6 days ago [-]
Author here.
> A pointer to an object type may be converted to a pointer to a different object type. If the resulting pointer is not correctly aligned71) for the referenced type, the behavior is undefined.
C23 6.3.2.3p7.
stevenhuang 6 days ago [-]
Byte and int has different alignment requirements. It is UB the moment you make such a ptr.
Great way to demonstrate the point of the article.
gritzko 6 days ago [-]
That better be marked "historical". At least, Lemire says:
(while in the olden days, a program may crash on unaligned access, esp on RISC)
eru 6 days ago [-]
Don't mix up what processors do with what the C standard allows you to get away with.
flohofwoe 6 days ago [-]
...and don't mix up the C standard with what actually existing compilers allow you to get away with ;) In the end the standard is merely a set of guidelines. What matters is how compiler toolchains behave in the real word, and breaking code which does unaligned memory accesses by 'UB exploitation' would be quite insane.
eru 5 days ago [-]
Sanity ain't a hard requirement for C compilers.
dmitrygr 6 days ago [-]
Without memcpy there is no guarantee that that line produces an invalid pointer
I don’t see what spec part would prohibit that cast from validly compiling to
BIC r3, r0, #3
Spec only guaranteed round-trip through char* of properly aligned for type pointers. This doesn’t break that.
weinzierl 6 days ago [-]
A fun one that'd fit list be sequence point violations like
i = i++
radiospiel 6 days ago [-]
Fun, sure, but also GCC and Clang will both warn with -Wall (-Wsequence-point / -Wunsequenced).
account42 6 days ago [-]
This would also be a code smell even if it was well defined.
marcosdumay 6 days ago [-]
Yes, it should be an explicit error. Not undefined.
leni536 6 days ago [-]
Only in C, that one is defined in C++.
edit: I'm not sure it's even undefined in C.
codeflo 6 days ago [-]
> The compiler, and really the underlying hardware too, is playing a game of telephone with your UB intentions.
The part about hardware is wrong BTW. In all the cases about null pointers and out-of-bounds access and integer overflow and whatnot, the hardware semantics are clearly defined, and the assembler code does exactly what is written. The way modern compilers act on your code makes C less safe than assembler in that sense.
thomashabets2 6 days ago [-]
Author here
> The part about hardware is wrong BTW
Could you be more specific? I think by "wrong" you may mean "not actually relevant to UB", and you're right about that. If that's what you mean then that part is not for you. It's for the "but it's demonstrably fine" crowd.
> the hardware semantics are clearly defined
Yup. The article means to dive from the C abstract machine to illustrate how your defined intentions (in your head), written as UB C, get translated into defined hardware behavior that you did not intend.
I'm not saying the CPU has UB, and I wonder what part made you think I did.
That's what I mean game of telephone. The UB parts get interpreted as real instructions by the hardware, and it will definitely do those things. But what are those things? It's not the things you intended, and any "common sense" reading of the C code is irrelevant, because the C representation of your intentions were UB.
codeflo 6 days ago [-]
It seems like I simply misunderstood the point of the "game of telephone" metaphor. To be honest, even with your added explanation, I don't fully get why you express it that way. But I think we're in agreement on the substance, and I shouldn't have worded my response so harshly.
> When programming in C, to avoid unexpected pitfalls, one must be acutely aware of a whole slew of implicit behaviors (some of which are implementation-defined or even undefined).
lelanthran 6 days ago [-]
I read through this in detail... Is it just me, or are these things that are invoked by intentionally bypassing the typing?
I mean, you have to go out of your way and use a cast to get the UB in the first example.
For the `isxdigit` implementation, using a parameter to index into an array without a length check is pretty suspect already. I don't think any of my code actually indexes an array without checking the length in some way.
For the float -> int conversion, converting a float to an int without picking a conversion does not make sense in the first place - math.h has rounding and ceiling functions.
> For all you know the compiler has no internal way to even express your intention here.
I'm human, not a compiler, and even I cannot tell what the intention is behind trying to call NULL as a function. What exactly is expected to happen?
> Because the argument needs to be a pointer, and the NULL macro may be misinterpreted as an integer zero.
I don't think this is true for C. The NULL macro is defined to be a pointer in the C standard, AFAIK. Just because comparisons with zero are allowed, does not imply that the standard implicitly promotes NULL to `int`.
I think only the final one is of note (the 24-bit shift assigned to a uint64_t).
account42 6 days ago [-]
> I don't think this is true for C. The NULL macro is defined to be a pointer in the C standard, AFAIK. Just because comparisons with zero are allowed, does not imply that the standard implicitly promotes NULL to `int`.
Probably confusion with C++ where NULL is 0 which is a special case that can be implicitly cast to both integers and pointers, unlike non-zero constants. C doesn't need this because it doesn't require explicit casts from void pointers to others.
bkallus 6 days ago [-]
> the OpenBSD project has not been very receptive in the past for bug reports, my sense of “this is probably fine, in practice”, and that if OpenBSD wants to weed out UB from their code base, then that’s a major project that should be done in a better way than me just being the middle man between the LLM and them for a patch here and there.
Part of the reason for all the UB in OpenBSD is that UBSan doesn't run on that platform. When I ported OpenBSD's httpd to Linux, I found that UBSan tripped before the server even came up because the config flag parsing shifts into the MSB of a signed integer.
I tried to contribute back a patch (just make the flag bitfield unsigned), but it was ignored. I think if UBSan ran natively on OpenBSD, then there would be a lot more of these patches, and the maintainers would have to take an official stance on whether they think these bugs matter.
commandlinefan 6 days ago [-]
A lot of this stems from trying to insist that char just means "small" and not "8 bits" and that int means "bigger than that" and not "32 bits". In fairness, K&R dealt with an era where 9 bit architectures existed, but char is 8 bits now. Everywhere.
jeroenhd 6 days ago [-]
In the world of microcontrollers, CHAR_BIT can be 16 or some other funky number. char is usually 8 bits in size, though.
casey2 5 days ago [-]
And that's a good thing. UB is another mechanism to speed up the development of compilers, many other languages fall trap to over defining while we lack the methods to solve such problems cleanly (believe me, the modern c++ people have tried). Usually this is the case because they believe strongly that their methods work despite evidence.
As for UB, the compiler has the final say. Nobody should write nontrivial c without understanding their compiler, the same as nobody should write c without understanding their text editor.
Code in other languages breaks between versions, in c there are projects with code from every version at once!
Looking at it another way, work put into a c compiler enables you to write nontrivial code.
psim1 6 days ago [-]
I like the ideas of this article but would not use SPARC as a main badguy in my examples. A naive and probably popular takeaway would be, "Thank goodness I am not writing for SPARC and don't need to worry about these SPARC architectural concerns!"
akiarie 6 days ago [-]
C is still, by far, the simplest language that we have.
Although many newer languages are safer (with the exclusion of Rust, primarily by being slower) the same kinds of issues that are there in C are there in these languages, their effects are just harder to see.
People complain about C as though they know how to fix it.
simonask 6 days ago [-]
C is not a simple language in the sense that writing software in C is simple, and I think that's the only useful way to understand the word "simple" in this context.
Brainfuck is "simple" by any other definition as well, but that's not a useful quality.
spacedcowboy 6 days ago [-]
C is a far simpler language than, for example, Swift. It's cognitive load in order to actually write something is pretty small - even the authors state that their book about C is intentionally slim because the concepts to understand are not that many.
That doesn't mean the C is a safer language than Swift, or a less-capable language than Swift. But in terms of "easy to understand along the happy-path", it's a lot easier to get going in C.
Swift, for example, bakes a whole load of CS-degree-level ideas and concepts into the basic language with its optionals, unwrapping, type-inference, async/await, existential types, ... ... ... . C doesn't do any of that. There are (many!) more footguns in C, but the language is less complex as a result.
Brainfuck is not at all simple, from that point of view. This is a valid Brainfuck program:
#include <stdio.h>
int main()
{ printf("Hello world!\n"); }
One of these is far simpler than the other.
[edit: changed to make the examples do the same thing]
simonask 6 days ago [-]
The point I'm getting at is that your definition of "simple" (a word that should be banned among programmers) is not useful, if it is even meaningful.
The brainfuck example is "simpler": Only 8 kinds of tokens! Not really useful, though.
The cognitive load of _actually delivering software_ written in C is immensely greater than doing so with Swift, or Rust, or Python, or Java, even Zig, despite all of those leveraging much heavier machinery in order to deliver a friendlier abstract model for you to program against.
The tragedy of C is that, in addition only delivering very baseline abstraction tools, it also adds its own set of seemingly arbitrary rules and requirements that come from nowhere but the C standard. Fictitious limitations to suit a bygone era. The abstract model of C is fine in some places, but definitely not fine in other places, and my hypothesis is that most UB in practice comes from a mismatch between programmer intuitions and C's idiosyncracies.
spacedcowboy 6 days ago [-]
Calling something "simple" to use and learn is a valid use of the word, sorry. Not going to stop doing that.
> The cognitive load of _actually delivering software_ written in C is immensely greater than doing so with Swift, or Rust, or Python, or Java, even Zig, despite all of those leveraging much heavier machinery in order to deliver a friendlier abstract model for you to program against
Sorry, I couldn't disagree more.
I find the simplicity of C to be elegant. You know the rules; it's like the entire C language is the 1-page summary of the encyclopaedia of C++ or Swift or Java, or (insert more-modern language here). The key to working well in C is in defining modular code with well-understood interfaces. I've got 40 years of programming in C so far, and the nightmare stories ran out after the first few years. Programming discipline is a thing.
Similarly, ObjC is a far superior, much simpler, object-oriented language than C++, there's about 15 different things over C, and you know the language. Template metaprogramming. Phooey! You'll still have to learn object-orientated programming semantics, but it's a "simple" language.
BTW: If you think the brainfuck language example is in any way easier to understand than the C one, I think you might need medication. /j
saagarjha 6 days ago [-]
> I've got 40 years of programming in C so far, and the nightmare stories ran out after the first few years.
You need to find something more interesting to do ;)
spacedcowboy 6 days ago [-]
Oh, I do. I'm building a two-story 1000 sq.ft garage right now - more workshop than garage tbh [1], I've just built a roll-off-roof observatory [2], the currently empty pad behind it is for a radio-telescope, last set up in London [3], still needs to be assembled in the new house. Right now I'm into the fun stuff of automating everything in the observatory. I've also recently taken up archery, and I'm enjoying that. I've written (well Claude has) an optimising compiler for a memory-managing language for the 6502 [4], but I'm just instrumenting (this bit is me) the IR so it can also target the M chip on my Mac. Eventually it'll also target m68k so I can bring up the Atari ST on the FPGA that is currently just emulating the atari 8-bit (I have a 120MHz 6502 at the moment :). The 'x' in 'xt' is from 'atari Xl' and the 't' is from 'atari sT'. The compiler is called 'xtc'. Both will run MiNT and the blitter on the FPGA is designed to integrate well with GEM, the graphics environment on the ST - even the XL version will have a graphical UI running at 1080p :)
another useful sense is easy to understand/read what programmer want to write.
(ofc exclude mad code with macros etc).
Brainfuck is absolutely not simple in this case
jeroenhd 5 days ago [-]
C sits right in the middle between assembly and BASIC in terms of simplicity. You can't do a simple popcnt, but you can implement jump tables.
It's slower than Fortran and, depending on the platform, cobol. It's a bigger minefield than any language that came after it barring C++.
The only real advantage I can ascribe to C is that it's actually still being used after all these years, and it mostly works similarly on most hardware, like a Java for people who enjoy the casino.
Fixing C without breaking existing C code is pretty much impossible. You can start by defining warnings for UB, but then you will break any of the more trivial examples in the article. You can also start by simply killing off weird platforms (force a specific amount of bits for instance, screw the weird 16 bit char chips). Making casts explicit would probably fix a lot of problems too, though you'd need better syntax for that.
There is no fixing C without changing what C really is.
dns_snek 6 days ago [-]
Can you elaborate what do you think C has in terms of simplicity that Zig doesn't, and which "same kinds of issues" do you think it has?
I'm not an expert in either language but my anecdotal experience disagrees with this - writing Zig has been far simpler and less error-prone than writing C.
amiga386 6 days ago [-]
Can anyone explain why this is undefined behaviour? UBSan calls it "indirect call of a function through a function pointer of the wrong type"
struct foo {int i;};
int func(struct foo *x) {return x->i;}
int main() {
int (*funcptr)(void*) = (int (*)(void*)) &func;
struct foo foo = { 42 };
return funcptr(&foo);
}
While this is all kosher per the language lawyers:
struct foo {int i;};
int func(void *x) {return ((struct foo *)x)->i;}
int main() {
int (*funcptr)(void*) = &func;
struct foo foo = { 42 };
return funcptr(&foo);
}
jcranmer 6 days ago [-]
C23 §6.5.2.2p7
> If the function is defined with a type that is not compatible with the type (of the expression) pointed to by the expression that denotes the called function, the behavior is undefined.
Compatible types requires integrating texts from several different paragraphs, but the general notion is "identical type, in a frontend sense", not "same ABI." This means that "const void " and "void " are not compatible types, much less "void " and "struct foo ".
amiga386 5 days ago [-]
I get that it's defined that way, but I'd really like to know why.
I can see the value in saying that struct x* isn't compatible with struct y*, because they could have different alignment or packing rules. But struct x* and void*, which is already special-cased to allow assignment without a cast? Why aren't these considered compatible in function pointer parameter definitions?
Is there any work involved in casting void* to struct* (on any architecture) that a plain function pointer would miss out?
teo_zero 5 days ago [-]
Yes, some restrictions seem arbitrary. Just like why these two types are not compatible:
struct a {int data;};
struct b {int data;};
I know, I know, changing it would break existing code, etc.
amiga386 5 days ago [-]
You jest, but a central feature of C is that void* is a universal pointer, and can be used as the basis of polymorphism and context passing. That's why you can do things like:
So what is the upside of having this rule, given the same thing is going to happen anyway, just more verbose?
wavemode 6 days ago [-]
It's undefined behavior due to the "strict aliasing" rule. You're simply not allowed to cast one pointer type to another (ever!) except for the following exceptions:
- casting an object pointer to or from void*
- casting an object pointer to or from char*
You're not doing either of those things. A function pointer is not an object pointer (the standard does not guarantee that the two kinds of pointer even have the same size/representation, and in fact on some esoteric hardware they don't), and even if it were, you aren't casting to or from void* or char*. So it's UB for two separate reasons.
jcranmer 6 days ago [-]
Sorry, this explanation is plain wrong.
You can cast between pointer types freely so long as they can be representable in one another (some casts are undefined because the address would be unaligned in the target pointer type, and there's actually no guarantee that pointers to objects and pointers to functions have the same representation).
Strict aliasing rules don't kick in at pointer type casting, but rather kick in at lvalue access--when you dereference a pointer, in other words--and you've also given the list of strict aliasing rules completely incorrectly.
j16sdiz 6 days ago [-]
Two function pointer (in practice) compatible or not depends on machine specific calling convention.
I guess enumerating all the possibility is just .. don't look right? make the standard too long and complex?
tomp 6 days ago [-]
Casting to a pointer of incompatible type is UB. The exception is casting to char*.
amiga386 6 days ago [-]
Tell me why struct* is incompatible with void* when it's such a standard case in C that you don't need a cast:
Or rather, tell me why the C11 standards committee decided to declare that struct* is incompatible with a void*
tomp 6 days ago [-]
ok so Claude says I was wrong, it's more subtle.
(1) you can cast between any pointer types (no UB - assuming they're aligned), but accessing memory through a wrongly-typed pointer is UB
(2) the only exception is char*, which allows you a "byte view of memory"
(3) calling a function through a pointer requires the parameter pointer types to be compatible, and none of these are: int*, struct foo *, void*, char*
kingforaday 6 days ago [-]
[dead]
hunterpayne 5 days ago [-]
What all these C programmers are pointing out is 2 fold:
- Making a Turing machine have deterministic and predictable results is hard.
- Modern hardware is complex and getting all hardware to behave the same way requires a strong mathematical abstraction.
C was never intended to be a fully defined mathematical abstraction. It was a language which was easy to write a compiler for. That's its original strength. Trying to make it something it isn't is the problem. Either choose a language which does have such abstractions or understand the drawbacks of the tool you are using.
Right tool for the right job.
keyle 6 days ago [-]
When talking UB, putting C and C++ in the same basket is basically like comparing drunk driving a car and riding a bicycle sober... Both means of transport, very different experience.
wyldfire 6 days ago [-]
Maybe we should criminalize writing articles about Undefined Behavior that have a "So what do we do now?" subheader but omit any mention of UBSan.
danborn26 6 days ago [-]
The scariest part is how many production systems rely on undefined behavior without anyone knowing until a compiler update breaks everything.
coolThingsFirst 6 days ago [-]
Where does scary part come from, they run on planes?
tomcam 6 days ago [-]
I fear I will be downvoted into oblivion but I also want to learn from this.
First let me state the case for C. It’s meant to be used as a systems language that’s as close to assembly as possible while remaining portable (compared to assembly). As such it’s the first high-level language developed for any new processor.
Given the above predicate: Isn’t everything described in the article as it should be?
Add too much to the language and it becomes less possible to implement on new architectures, right? Because the undefined behavior lets implementors stand up new compilers fairly quickly.
For less undefined behavior isn’t it better to use languages that have that in their DNA? D, Zig, Go, Java, etc?
vladms 6 days ago [-]
> Given the above predicate: Isn’t everything described in the article as it should be?
I think the real trick question is "as it should be for whom?".
Reading the comments I think people underestimate the complex interaction between:
- engineers that design hardware (they don't care much about the compiler, except when it has to fix their mistakes)
- engineers that do the compiler (they have to struggle with all quirks of the new architecture and all of the complaints of the users)
- users of the new system (hardware + compiler) that just want to take their 100k lines of code (libraries) and just use it on the new system with better performance (as that's what the hardware people promissed!)
- users working on one architecture all their lives
For the compiler people, yes, probably most what is described is as it should be. For the users (that care about performance and not making porting efforts), probably no.
Now, even when I was doing compiler work we had a hard time explaining our users why we couldn't do some things they wanted (while also improving performance and not changing code that was writting), so explaining that on the internet seems to me a lost battle.
I am sure there are things that can be improved, and standards evolve. But the problem is very complex given the sheer amount of code written and the strange architectures out there.
6 days ago [-]
bvrmn 6 days ago [-]
I really like Zig's approach to UB. Especially alignment is a part of type. And all this wordy builtins for conversions. Starring to it makes you think what you doing wrong with data model it requires now 3 lines of casting expression.
1vuio0pswjnm7 6 days ago [-]
"My point is that ALL nontrivial C and C++ code has UB."
Is "nontrivial" defined
How would one identify "nontrivial" C code
Is there an objective measure (defined)
Or is it a matter of personal opinion that could vary from person to person (undefined)
stackedinserter 6 days ago [-]
How can it be valid implementation of isxdigit?
```
int isxdigit(int c) {
if (c == EOF) {
return false;
}
return some_array[c];
}
```
If you write code like this, then everything in programming is UB.
veltas 6 days ago [-]
From the ANSI C standard:
3.16 undefined behavior: Behavior, upon use of a nonportable or erroneous program construct, of erroneous data, or of indeterminately valued objects, for which this International Standard imposes no requirements. Permissible undefined behavior ranges from ignoring the situation completely with unpredictable results, to behaving during translation or program execution in a documented manner characteristic of the environment (with or without the issuance of a diagnostic message).
Is it just me or did compiler writers apply overly legalistic interpretation to the "no requirements" part in this paragraph? The intent here is extremely clear, that undefined behavior means you're doing something not intended or specified by the language, but that the consequence of this should be somewhat bounded or as expected for the target machine. This is closer to our old school understanding of UB.
By 'bounded', this obviously ignores the security consequences of e.g. buffer overflows, but just because UB can be exploited doesn't mean it's appropriate for e.g. the compiler to exploit it too, that clearly violates the intent of this paragraph.
dataflow 6 days ago [-]
> but that the consequence of this should be somewhat bounded or as expected for the target machine.
Aren't "unpredictable results" and "no requirements" contrary to the idea that the behavior would be "somewhat bounded"?
veltas 6 days ago [-]
Notice though "ignoring the situation" thru "documented manner characteristic of the environment". Even though truly you can read this in an uncharitable way, you could also try and understand the intent of this paragraph, and I think reading it for its intents is always the best way to interpret a language standard when the wording is ambiguous or soft, especially if you're writing a compiler.
I don't think you could sincerely argue that this definition intends to allow the compiler to totally rewrite your code because of one guaranteed UB detected on line 5, just that it would be good to print a diagnostic if it can be detected, and if not to do what's "characteristic of the environment". Does that make sense?
gpderetta 6 days ago [-]
Ex falso quodlibet.
Bounding UB would be a nice idea, or at least prohibiting time-traveling UB (and there is an effort in that direction). But properly specifing it is actually hard.
account42 6 days ago [-]
Prohibiting "time-travelling" UB would be horrible as that's a very important mechanism for dead code elimination.
dzaima 6 days ago [-]
Even if you forbid "time travel", you can still technically optimize many things as if time travel happened anyway - e.g. want to time-travel back to before some memory store? just pretend that the store happened, but then afterwards the previous value was stored back (and no other threads happen to see the intermediate value)!
Only things you need to worry about then are things with actual observable side-effects - volatile, printf and similar - and C23 does note that all observable behavior should happen even if UB follows, and compilers can't generally optimize function calls anyway (e.g. on systems on which you can define custom printf callbacks, you could put an exit(0) in such, and thus make it incorrect to optimize out a printf ever).
cracki 6 days ago [-]
Reading for intent is pragmatic.
Reading adversarially is what people do who are looking for ways that something can be abused, from an offensive or defensive position.
Personally I am tired of the entire topic.
veltas 6 days ago [-]
What's bad is when your compiler writers and most of the people involved in standardisation are reading it adversarially.
account42 6 days ago [-]
It's bad when compiler writers want to optimize correct code as much as possible, which is something their actual customers keep asking for?
veltas 6 days ago [-]
When would optimizing correct code be harmed by not abusing UB (beyond its original intent, e.g. array access should be without overhead of checking for overflow)?
dataflow 6 days ago [-]
> Notice though "ignoring the situation" thru "documented manner characteristic of the environment".
I noticed that. Those are 100% consistent & implied by the parts of the standard I quoted that you are ignoring, though.
What you're doing is:
- Arguing is that those phrases describe the totality of the implications, rather than mere examples, without providing anything to base this method of argumentation on.
- Completely ignoring the other phrases I quoted, which (taken at face value) contradict your reading.
- Claiming that anyone who disagrees is being insincere(?) and reading the standard uncharitably.
- Not even attempting to support this line of reasoning through other arguments.
So you're not only asking people to read contradictions into the standard, but also insinuating that people who don't are not arguing in good faith. That... honestly isn't a winning strategy.
Note that I'm not even saying your conclusion regarding their intent is necessarily wrong. I'm just saying your argument is bad. And that there is a difference between what the rules are and what some people believe their authors intended them to be.
If I wanted to argue your position, I would look for other parts of the standard where they do what you're claiming. That is, where the literal meaning of the wording would be crazy, and which would clearly contract what everyone believes the authors of the standard intended it to mean. Then you would at least have some basis for extrapolating that line of reasoning to this paragraph. At that point you might at least get an acknowledgment from the other side that the standard is unclear and/or has a defect, even if they didn't agree with your take on what requirements it imposes as-written.
> I don't think you could sincerely argue that this definition intends to allow the compiler to totally rewrite your code because of one guaranteed UB detected on line 5,
I'm not sure if you're exaggerating ("totally"?), being sloppy, or misunderstanding, or if you actually mean this literally, but I already don't believe it does that, and I have never seen any compiler interpret it that way either. Sorry, but you're going to have to be more precise and pedantic here so you actually have something realistic to argue against. Right now it looks like you have an impression of UB that doesn't match reality.
veltas 5 days ago [-]
> Completely ignoring the other phrases I quoted, which (taken at face value) contradict your reading.
You are taking them out of context (literally this is what you describe here, taking at face value a smaller quote).
I think your approach to interpreting the spec is not correct. This isn't code, it's a spec: it needs to be read in full context (even though a good spec would certainly be written in a less context-sensitive way, this is not a perfect spec -- have you ever seen one?). You're not a computer or a machine, you need to read it more like a human, even though we're all trained on the concrete mechanics of computer programming. Yes, even though it's describing a programming language, believe it or not. All specs have flaws and need nuance in those situations or you will either (for language specs) write code that doesn't work anywhere, or you will write a compiler that breaks code matching what the authors of the spec intended to allow.
> Right now it looks like you have an impression of UB that doesn't match reality.
I have an impression of UB that is not the convention, my post is criticising the convention. I am trying to give context and nuance where it is unfortunately lacking and now apparently quite relevant to lots of people. This can't change reality of current compilers, but maybe it can serve as a lesson in history.
thomashabets2 6 days ago [-]
Author here.
I touched on this in the "it's not about optimizations" section. It's not the compiler is out to get you. It's that you told it to do something it cannot express.
It's like if you slipped in a word in French, and not being programmed for French, it misheard the word as a false friend in English. The compiler had no way to represent the French word in it's parse tree.
So no, it's not overly legalistic. Like if the compiler knows that this hardware can do unaligned memory access, but not atomic unaligned access, should it check for alignment in std::atomic<int> ptr but not in int ptr? Probably not, right?
veltas 6 days ago [-]
It's not that your article specifically discusses this aspect, but I think it's an important part of the conversation that's being overlooked by commentators, that we've twisted the original intent of UB and made unnecessary work for ourselves. There's been too much scaremongering about UB that's gone beyond the real concerns. If you only fear UB and don't understand it then you are worse off for trying to write safe C or C++.
1718627440 6 days ago [-]
The behaviour is bounded by the capability of your machine. It is unlikely that your desktop computer launches a nuclear missile, unless you worked for it to be able to do that.
lelanthran 6 days ago [-]
> Is it just me or did compiler writers apply overly legalistic interpretation to the "no requirements" part in this paragraph?
I've (fruitlessly) had this discussion on HN before - super-aggressive optimisations for diminishing rewards are the norm in modern compilers.
In old C compilers, dereferencing NULL was reliable - the code that dereferenced NULL will always be emitted. Now, dereferencing NULL is not reliable, because the compiler may remove that and the program may fail in ways not anticipated (i.e, no access is attempted to memory location 0).
The compiler authors are on the standard, and they tend to push for more cases of UB being added rather than removing what UB there is right now (for exampel, by replacing with Implementation Defined Behaviour).
benj111 6 days ago [-]
The issue for me with posts like this is that it misses the issue.
Unaligned pointer accesses are UB because different systems handle it differently. This 'should' be to allow the program to be portable by doing what the system normally does.
Instead it's been highjacked by compiler writers, with the logic that "X is UB, therefore can't happen, therefore can be optimised away."
Int c = abs(a) + abs(b);
If (a > c) //overflow
Is UB because some system might do overflow differently. In practice every system wraps around.
That should be a valid check, instead it gets optimised away because it 'can't' happen.
C gives you enough rope to hang yourself. The compiler writers don't trust you to use the rope properly.
elnatro 6 days ago [-]
Is there a way to avoid undefined behavior Im C then? Could we write a new C compiler that adds some checks and fixes (e.g. raise documented exceptions) to each undefined behavior?
u1hcw9nx 6 days ago [-]
That post is just a hyperbolic rhetorical piece, not even a good technical shade. There are plenty of tools that restrict C into defined behavior subset. HN is just not aware of them. NASA, Aerospace and car industry are big customers, static analyzers and compilers.
Good open source ones:
Frama-C
IKOS (from NASA)
elnatro 6 days ago [-]
It’s been a while since I programmed in C. Thank you for these resources.
saagarjha 6 days ago [-]
Not all of them but there are many tools that can try to define behavior for this code to help shake them out of your codebase.
peterfirefly 6 days ago [-]
ubsan.
Doesn't catch all of it.
elnatro 5 days ago [-]
Will take a look thanks!
fjfaase 6 days ago [-]
Is comparing a signed integer with an unsigned integer UB? I resently wrote some code and compiled it with gcc to x86_64 (without optimization) that returned an incorrect answer.
Karliss 6 days ago [-]
No UB, but the integer promotions rules apply.
When comparing signed and unsigned integers of same size the signed one will be converted to unsigned. In a reasonably configured project compiler will warn about it.
In case of integers smaller than int, promotion to int happens first.
In case of signed and unsigned integers of different size, the smaller one will be converted to bigger one.
benchloftbrunch 6 days ago [-]
It's not UB. Integer promotion applies, the signed int is implicitly coerced to unsigned (or the other way around - don't remember which.)
QuiEgo 6 days ago [-]
C does not abstract differences in underlying hardware well. Systems programmers know if they have an architecture that can't handle unaligned accesses or that the address they are doing load/stores from is a mmio register. Systems programmers know the difference between a virtual address and a physical address and have debugged MPU faults or MMU table walks and page faults more times than they want to think about.
C is horrible for trying to write a portable user-mode program in 2026. There are lots of better options.
C is great for writing low-level system code where you need to optimize performance down to the last cycle. It not abstracting away the hardware is super important for some use cases. A classic example is all of the platform-specific flavors of memcpy in the Linux kernel that are C/assembly hybrids hand-optimized for the SIMD pipelines of some CPUs.
C is a tool, Rust is a tool, Java is a tool, Python is a tool. Use the right tool for the job ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
raluk 6 days ago [-]
In C / C++ there are two kinds of undefined behaviour. One is where there is written in standard what UB is. Another one is everthing else that is not in standard.
thaumasiotes 6 days ago [-]
Technically, that's only one kind, because it's written in the standard that anything not mentioned in the standard is undefined behavior.
6 days ago [-]
cepepe 6 days ago [-]
One kind, but two different classes of undefined behaviour.
I want a language that is a group of bit (0,1) and the xor operator. Everything else is built on top of that.
up2isomorphism 6 days ago [-]
U just need to read the title and 5 lines to know this must be a rust guy.
SanjayMehta 6 days ago [-]
I used to teach C programming and one time I got anonymous feedback: "when this instructor doesn't know the answer he says "it's compiler dependent.""
Shrug.
justmarc 6 days ago [-]
The art is actually making sure it all stays defined behavior
fithisux 6 days ago [-]
UB can also have impact in logical cohesion of codebase.
alper 6 days ago [-]
Isn't the article mostly saying that SPARC sucks?
DostLeFan 6 days ago [-]
Very interesting article. I'm in love with C++, and I cannot say that I'm a good developer, but interesting to discover where UB can be. (Sorry I'm not a good english speaker)
my-next-account 6 days ago [-]
Hello, it's me. I'm not afraid of UB.
my-next-account 6 days ago [-]
To be honest, miscompilations because of UB is exceedingly rare, and we do a lot of weird shit in our code.
saagarjha 6 days ago [-]
You should be!
0x20cowboy 6 days ago [-]
Life is undefined behaviour.
el_pollo_diablo 6 days ago [-]
> probably meaning on an address that’s a multiple of sizeof(int), but who knows
Sigh. s/sizeof(int)/_Alignof(int)/.
There are good reasons for an implementation to have sizeof(int) = _Alignof(int) and not a mere multiple of it, but if you are going to discuss subtle points and UB, just stick to the language guarantees.
> But let’s say you have a modern machine, where NULL is a pointer to address zero, and you actually have an object there.
You don't program in C on such a machine. Or maybe memory is virtualized, and it does not matter that your object lives at physical address zero, as long as you can map a non-zero virtual address to it.
> So how do you print an uid_t?
if ((uid_t)-1 < (uid_t)0) {
// uid_t is signed
printf("%" PRIdMAX, (intmax_t)id);
} else {
// uid_t is unsigned
printf("%" PRIuMAX, (uintmax_t)id);
}
> It’s not rare for the denominator to come from untrusted input.
It's not rare for the array index to come from untrusted input.
It's not rare for the supposedly valid UTF-8 string to come from untrusted input.
...
Why single out division? This problem affects every partially defined operation. In the case of division at least, everyone learned in school that thou shalt not divide by zero. Adding two untrusted integers and forgetting that signed overflow is UB, not defined as a modulo? Your average programmer is much less likely to see that coming.
> unsigned char a = 0xff;
> unsigned char b = 1;
> unsigned char zero = 0;
> bool overflowed = (a + b) == zero;
>
> unsigned char a = 0x80;
> uint64_t b = a << 24;
Please. Convert your operands to wide enough types before the operation. Convert your results back to narrow enough types to compensate for integer promotion to wider types than you would have liked. Do that consistently, and you're good.
Here:
unsigned char a = 0xff;
unsigned char b = 1;
unsigned char zero = 0;
bool overflowed = (unsigned char)(a + b) == zero;
unsigned char a = 0x80;
uint64_t b = (uint32_t)a << 24;
groby_b 6 days ago [-]
"not correctly aligned (probably meaning on an address that’s a multiple of sizeof(int), but who knows)"
I stopped reading there. If you have decades of experience in C/C++ and don't know what that means (and that it's arch specific), I'll assume those decades were mostly the same year over and over.
C/C++ are horrible languages, but they deserve better opponents than that.
pphysch 6 days ago [-]
It's also worth highlighting that C is perhaps the most officially standardized programming language in history.
What a contradiction. Strong evidence that standard-driven programming language development is much worse than implementation-driven development. Standards should be used for data types and external interfaces/protocols, not programming languages.
feelamee 5 days ago [-]
> We need some way of fixing UB at scale, without committing AI slop nor overwhelming human reviewers.
Write compiler which will define all this behavior.
Usually people forget that UB exists only in standard. In practice it is always defined.
P.S. of course, while your hardware + firmware staying unchanged
P.S. not always defined in documentation - I mean defined in e.g. code
6 days ago [-]
stackghost 6 days ago [-]
Anyone who uses the construction "C/C++" doesn't write modern C++, and probably isn't very familiar with the recent revisions despite TFA's claims of writing it every day for decades.
Far from being just "C with classes", modern C++ is very different than C. The language is huge and complex, for sure, but nobody is forced to use all of it.
No HN comment can possibly cover all the use cases of C++ but in general, unless you have a very good reason not to:
- eschewing boomer loops in favor of ranges
- using RAII with smart pointers
- move semantics
- using STL containers instead of raw arrays
- borrowing using spans and string views
These things go a long way towards, shall we say, "safe-ish" code without UB. It is not memory-safe enforced at the language level, like Rust, but the upshot is you never need to deal with the Rust community :^)
veltas 6 days ago [-]
Although some people, like Bjarne Stroustrup, object to the term C/C++, it's a bit like Richard Stallman objecting to the term "Linux". The fact is it can mean "C or C++", and I wouldn't assume the author thinks they're the same, but they're talking about both of them together in the same sentence. This seems reasonable given this is about undefined behavior, and it's trivial to accidentally write UB-inducing code in C++ even with modern style (although I'd say you should catch most trivial cases with e.g. ubsan, and a lot of bad cases would be avoided with e.g. ranges, so I think the article is exaggerating the issue).
stackghost 6 days ago [-]
Well, the author explicitly refers to "C/C++" as one language:
>After all, C/C++ is not a memory safe language.
thomashabets2 6 days ago [-]
That is a typo, that I think I introduced when I went back to clarify that it applies to C++ too.
Will fix it.
thomashabets2 6 days ago [-]
Author here.
In the context of UB discussion, the arguments apply equally to C and C++.
How would you write that?
I entirely agree with all your points that C and C++ are completely different languages at this point. And yet I wanted to write this post about something that is true for both.
rectang 6 days ago [-]
> the upshot is you never need to deal with the Rust community
In the end, everything comes down to culture war.
stackghost 6 days ago [-]
Perhaps we should rewrite our culture in Rust.
jim33442 4 days ago [-]
I've never noticed an issue with this using any of those three languages
jim33442 5 days ago [-]
You can write C++ in a way that's similar to C if you want and run into some of the same UB. Normally I don't like the "C/C++" thing, but in this context it makes sense.
6 days ago [-]
SpaceNugget 6 days ago [-]
I totally agree that modern c++ is pretty robust if you are both a well seasoned developer and only stick to a very blessed subset of it's features and avoid the historical baggage.
However, that's obviously not the point? Ignoring the idea that people can/should just "git gud" and write perfect code in a language with lots of old traps, you can't control how everyone else writes their code, even on your own team once it gets big enough. And there will always be junior devs stumbling into the bear traps of c/c++ (even if the rest of the codebase is all modern c++). So no matter how many great new features get added to C++, until (never) they start taking away the bad ones, the danger inherent to writing in that language doesn't go away.
Also, safe != non-UB. TFA isn't so much about memory safety anyway.
m-schuetz 6 days ago [-]
C/C++ is a perfectly fine term for C or C-style C++. The languages can be very close, and personally I prefer C-style C++ miles over some of the half-baked modern nonsense. I mean, I do use C++23 since it has some great additions, but I'm ditching like 90% of the stuff that only adds complexity without much benefit.
flohofwoe 6 days ago [-]
"C/C++" is still a useful term for the common C/C++ subset :)
As far as stdlib usage is concerned: that's just your opinion. The stdlib has a lot of footguns and terrible design decisions too, e.g. std::vector pulling in 20k lines of code into each compilation unit is simply bizarre.
Those are just as unsafe as raw pointers. It's not really "borrowing" when the referenced data can disappear while the "borrow" is active.
6 days ago [-]
cracki 6 days ago [-]
We know. This is not news.
boxed 6 days ago [-]
It seems to be to many many programmers who keep using C++
synergy20 6 days ago [-]
if c is more ub unsafe than it seems,what is the solution here
EGreg 6 days ago [-]
a good case can be made that use of C++ is a SOX violation
So Linus was right? But for a second reason too:
C++ is a horrible language. It’s made more horrible by the fact that a lot of substandard programmers use it, to the point where it’s much, much easier to generate total and utter crap with it. Quite frankly, even if the choice of C were to do _nothing_ but keep the C++ programmers out, that in itself would be a huge reason to use C.
That is, accepting C++ code from programmers who use C++ could be a SOX violation ;-)
VimEscapeArtist 6 days ago [-]
Wait until he discovers PowerShell ;D
jraph 6 days ago [-]
Yet another push to use LLMs after casting fear. Now it should be illegal not to use LLMs. A good start of the day.
(I hope casting fear is not UB)
raverbashing 6 days ago [-]
> (I hope casting fear is not UB)
I'm sure that's UB in C
In C++ just use <reinterpret_cast>
wg0 6 days ago [-]
The irony is unmistakable.
stevenhuang 6 days ago [-]
There is nothing ironic in letting an llm have a pass at identifying potential UB and other correctness issues in C code.
I say this as an experienced C developer.
wg0 6 days ago [-]
It is ironic because the behaviour of an LLM itself is UB. Guaranteed.
the only people complaining about being able to do awful things are people that do awful things
gritzko 6 days ago [-]
- a metal bar always sinks
- unless you are trying to sink it in mercury. then it floats
- unless it is an uranium bar
- go sink uranium bars in mercury yourself
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nokeya 6 days ago [-]
Ok, and?
6 days ago [-]
wg0 6 days ago [-]
"Rewrite everything in Rust. OMG universe is written in Rust so memory safe with zero allocations"
Webhix 6 days ago [-]
maybe rewrite this in go?)
reinhash 6 days ago [-]
Rust.
mbrock 6 days ago [-]
most languages don't even HAVE a specification so in most languages literally EVERYTHING everything is undefined behavior
oersted 6 days ago [-]
UB doesn't mean that it is not specified (actually it is often very well specified), it means that compilers can and do assume that such code patterns will not be present. Those cases may not be considered and can lead to unexpected behaviour.
Additionally, some (most?) UB is intentionally UB so that optimisers are free to do fancy tricks assuming that certain cases will never happen. Indeed, this is required for high performance. If they do happen, again, it can lead to unexpected behaviour.
PS: Most languages that don't have a specification declare their primary implementation to be specification-as-code. Rust is an example of that, and it does still have UB: the cases that the compiler assumes will not happen.
mbrock 6 days ago [-]
undefined behavior is the behavior of code patterns "for which this International Standard imposes no requirements" and the behavior is in fact almost always predictable and agreed upon by compiler vendors and the users of the language, which is why you are able to use programs that rely on undefined behavior probably every single second you are using the computer
edit: for example I'm typing this into Safari which means probably every key press and event is going through JSC JIT compiled functions—which have, structurally and necessarily and intentionally, COMPLETELY undefined behavior according to the spec—and yet it miraculously works, perfectly, because the spec doesn't really matter
saagarjha 6 days ago [-]
It matters when your JSC JIT is full of security holes
mbrock 6 days ago [-]
ok what's the alternative?
saagarjha 6 days ago [-]
Removing the undefined behavior
mbrock 6 days ago [-]
you mean removing the JIT?
saagarjha 6 days ago [-]
No
mbrock 6 days ago [-]
okey dokey
grougnax 6 days ago [-]
Use Rust!
liamd1988 6 days ago [-]
When use C ,keep using char* not mess with int*
ricardobeat 6 days ago [-]
I’ve been heavily invested in https://c3-lang.org/ the past couple months. How does it look from this perspective to someone with C experience?
momo26 6 days ago [-]
Debugging in C is soooo hard. When I was writing Malloc Lab in system course, there were uncountable undefined and out of range :(
flohofwoe 6 days ago [-]
Yet, debugging memory corruption issues in C and C++ code with modern compiler toolchains and memory debugging tools is infinitely easier than 25 years ago.
(e.g. just compiling with address sanitizer and using static analyzers catch pretty much all of the 'trivial' memory corruption issues).
feelamee 5 days ago [-]
I think vice versa - C is so simply, that debugging it is just a pleasant walk.
Especially compared with modern languages with lambdas/exceptions/virtual functions and so on.
The one thing I see can make it harder is function pointers.
bullen 6 days ago [-]
Everything in Java is defined behaviour, you need a VM with GC to remain sane.
Everything else is a waste of time!
nullpwr 6 days ago [-]
Excellent post. But it's addressed to the wrong people.
The problem lies with compilers, not with the language and its specification, or with the creators of the C programming language.
Anyone can write a compiler that transforms all undefined behaviors (UB) into defined behaviors (DB). And your compiler will be used by people, including me.
HarHarVeryFunny 6 days ago [-]
I'd say the unaligned pointer one is the language's fault. The language should not let you create an an invalid pointer, or at least warn you when you are doing so.
OTOH one could argue that creating truly portable programs is not possible since a programming language is a leaky abstraction - different machines have different endianness, different alignment requirements, different amounts of memory, etc. One could argue therefore that the language should not make any assumptions about the alignment restrictions, or lack of them, on the machine you are compiling for. Just document that "manually created" pointers may be unaligned and have machine-dependent behavior. A nice compiler could still generate a warning or error if you create a pointer that doesn't meet the alignment requirements of the target you are compiling for.
C/C++'s provision of type casts reflects that the language has made the design decision to not restrict the user, and let them step outside the bounds of any guarantees the language provides if they want to. Unions are also a form of type cast.
nullpwr 6 days ago [-]
> The language should not let you create an an invalid pointer, or at least warn you when you are doing so
completely agree!
casey2 5 days ago [-]
That's a nonsensical statement, a language cannot warn you, only a compiler can (-Wcast-align). The compiler can also decide what is and isn't an invalid pointer, this way the language avoids leaky abstractions.
HarHarVeryFunny 5 days ago [-]
Different hardware targets obviously differ in many ways, not just alignment requirements, but things like endianness, integer representation, etc. C23 has finally said that signed integers must be in 2's complement representation, but this is only practically possible since all modern CPUs have also done that. Maybe endianness will be be mandated at some point since modern processors have also rallied around little endian ordering.
However, C has since day one chosen to define a leaky abstraction by putting efficiency above all else and having the language/implementation adapt to the hardware rather than vice versa (having the implementation hide hardware differences to implement some language-defined standard). The most obvious case of this is the size of the integer types short, int, and long, where the standard only says that "short <= int <= long" and specifies minimum value ranges that each type must be able to hold. The spec basically says that ints must be at least 16-bit, while on most targets they are in fact going to be 32-bit. Of course you can use int32_t etc for better portability, but nonetheless the language provides this "int" type whose size and endianness are unspecified.
C's unions could also be considered as providing a leaky abstraction, since it exposes differences between implementations - endianness, alignment/packing.
Then you get to things like size of address space, pointer sizes and representations, even amount of memory that a program may be able to allocate.
The only way a language could totally abstract away the underling hardware would be to base it on some lowest common denominator of hardware (or virtual machines) that it is willing to support, which would be totally impractical. The alternative is that you just accept the leaky abstraction and say that many things are implementation defined, not language defined.
HarHarVeryFunny 5 days ago [-]
It's obvious at the langauge level if you are creating, for example, an int pointer that is not guaranteed to be int-aligned. The only way to guarantee that an int pointer is int-aligned is if it comes from malloc* or new (C++), or if you take the address of an integer variable.
Any time you need to use a type cast to assign an int pointer, other than casting the output of malloc, then you potentially have a unaligned pointer, although only the compiler, knowing the alignment requirements of the target, would know if that is creating an invalid pointer or not.
* The C/C++ language (standard library) spec says that malloc must return memory that is aligned to meet the (target) requirements of all built in types, which is obviously a bit wasteful, as well not helpful for things like SIMD types that may be supported by libraries rather than built-in.
nullpwr 5 days ago [-]
Thanks for the clarification. Yes, that's right – that's the job of the compiler/parser/etc.
I like the C programming language. To be honest, I regret not having the knowledge (low skills) to write my own compiler, or at least a standard library. I have some rough sketches on paper of what it should look like, but I can't implement it.
logicchains 6 days ago [-]
The concept of undefined behaviour is also a very useful lens for understanding LLM-based coding. Anything you don't explicitly specify is undefined behavior, so if you don't want the LLM to potentially pick a ridiculous implementation for some aspect of an application, make sure to explicitly specify how it should be implemented.
Here's a way weirder example:
This is totally fine if x is just an int, but the volatile makes it UB. Why? 5.1.2.4.1 says any volatile access - including just reading it - is a side effect. 6.5.1.2 says that unsequenced side effects on the same scalar object (in this case, x) are UB. 6.5.3.3.8 tells us that the evaluations of function arguments are indeterminately sequenced w.r.t. each other.So in common parlance, a "data race" is any concurrent accesses to the same object from different threads, at least one of which is a write. In C, we can have a data race on a single thread and without any writes!
> It barely scratches the surface.
I agree. The point of the post is not to enumerate and explain the implications of all 283 uses of the word "undefined" in the standard. Nor enumerate all the things that are undefined by omission.
The point of the post is to say it's not possible to avoid them. Or at least, no human since the invention of C in 1972 has.
And if it's not succeeded for 54 years, "try harder", or "just never make a mistake", is at least not the solution.
The (one!) exploitable flaw found by Mythos in OpenBSD was an impressive endorsement of the OpenBSD developers, and yet as the post says, I pointed it at the simplest of their code and found a heap of UB.
Now, is it exploitable that `find` also reads the uninitialized auto variable `status` (UB) from a `waitpid(&status)` before checking if `waitpid()` returned error? (not reported) I can't imagine an architecture or compiler where it would be, no.
FTA:
> The following is not an attempt at enumerating all the UB in the world. It’s merely making the case that UB is everywhere, and if nobody can do it right, how is it even fair to blame the programmer? My point is that ALL nontrivial C and C++ code has UB.
I presume you're referring to this code:
The only signal handler find installs is for SIGINFO, and it uses the SA_RESTART flag, so EINTR can be ruled out. The pid argument is definitely valid as you can't reach the above if it wasn't, and there's no other way for the child process to be reaped[1], so no ECHILD.A check should probably be added in case the situation changes in the future, triggering spooky action at a distance, or were that code to be copy+pasted somewhere where the invariants didn't hold. But I think the current code in its current context is, strictly speaking, correct as-is.
[1] OpenBSD lacks the kernel features for such surprises that might theoretically be possible on Linux.
But in my code, I would have fixed for the reasons you mention. Sprinkle enough of these around, and some low percentage will in the future have its assumption invalidated.
EINTR scares the crap out of me because nobody expects it!
When writing library code, it's important to consider EINTR because you can't know about signal dispositions. Though, the common practice of looping on EINTR kind of defeats the purpose.
> And if it's not succeeded for 54 years, "try harder", or "just never make a mistake", is at least not the solution.
And I 100% agree. UB is way overused by these standards for how dangerous it is, and as a consequence using C (and C++) for anything nontrivial amounts to navigating a minefield.
"Oh, it was quite a while ago. I kind of stopped when C came out. That was a big blow. We were making so much good progress on optimizations and transformations. We were getting rid of just one nice problem after another. When C came out, at one of the SIGPLAN compiler conferences, there was a debate between Steve Johnson from Bell Labs, who was supporting C, and one of our people, Bill Harrison, who was working on a project that I had at that time supporting automatic optimization...The nubbin of the debate was Steve's defense of not having to build optimizers anymore because the programmer would take care of it. That it was really a programmer's issue.... Seibel: Do you think C is a reasonable language if they had restricted its use to operating-system kernels? Allen: Oh, yeah. That would have been fine. And, in fact, you need to have something like that, something where experts can really fine-tune without big bottlenecks because those are key problems to solve. By 1960, we had a long list of amazing languages: Lisp, APL, Fortran, COBOL, Algol 60. These are higher-level than C. We have seriously regressed, since C developed. C has destroyed our ability to advance the state of the art in automatic optimization, automatic parallelization, automatic mapping of a high-level language to the machine. This is one of the reasons compilers are ... basically not taught much anymore in the colleges and universities."
-- Fran Allen interview, Excerpted from: Peter Seibel. Coders at Work: Reflections on the Craft of Programming
A lot of UB should be implementation defined behaviour instead; this would much better match programmers’ intuitions as they reason about their code - you can even see it in the comments of this post: it’s always things like “this hardware supports / doesn’t support unaligned accesses”, it’s never nasal demons.
The fallout of this are quite large! If behaviour is implementation defined the compiler has to stick to one consistent behaviour. No such need for UB, you can get different behaviour bu changing unrelated code, by changing between debug and release or just because of what garbage happened to be on the stack.
Since the compiler is allowed to assume the UB doesn't happen it will also sometimes look like the compiler miscompiled your code elsewhere, but what actually happened was some inlining followed by extrapolating "this can never happen".
UB is often surprising: I have seen unaligned loads crash on x86 due to it bring UB in C (even though x86 is generally fine with it). But once a newer compiler decided that it was fine to vectorise that code (since it clearly aligned) the CPU was no longer happy with it.
That is, the compiler de facto defines what happens when you compile UB code.
So you're not wrong, but I think you missed the sarcastic spin of parent.
That is not what undefined behavior is though, that is unspecified behavior.
The entire point of undefined behavior is to cover the cases where the compiler can't define the semantics of your program either because doing so is genuinely not possible, or is incredibly onerous to deduce, or would require introducing runtime checks whose performance cost is at odds with C and C++'s predominant use cases.
That "de facto" did some heavy lifting.
It's entirely legal for implementations to have predictable behaviour, documented or not, for code that is undefined by the standard. In their quest for maxxing benchmark performance they generally choose not to, but there's really nothing in any standard that stops you from making an implementation that prioritises safety.
Moreover, this is at best an incredibly pedantic point, not something that changes how programmers need to approach UB. You can't review the source code of a compiler that hasn't been written yet.
I'm not suggesting you change how you write code, but with a better implementation the code that you do write - that lives in the real world where mistakes are made - might work better. How is that being pedantic?
An interesting case where compiler writers did something like that is casting via union members, but I'm running out of time, so we can talk about that another day.
Some would prefer less excitement than this.
C code should be more predictable and easier to reason about than using a macro assembler. To the extent it is not, the language has failed.
Perhaps some professional programmers know how to write secure software in a language with undefined behaviour. Maybe we should think about that more rather than just writing off an obviously huge success as a failure?
Better yet, define an order for parameter evaluation.
And in fact, in the example given, if there is something (another thread or whatever) that can change the value of x, then you don't know what either number will be. Well, in that circumstance, without volatile, it may print the same number both times, but you still don't know what the number will be (unless the read gets optimized away entirely).
The spelling for compiler authors getting to choose a behavior is "implementation defined", as the other comment mentions.
No. It most definitely does not mean this. Go read the series this is part of: https://blog.llvm.org/2011/05/what-every-c-programmer-should...
It is absolutely critical that people programming in C understand what real compilers in the real world do.
"5.1.2.4.1 says any volatile access - including just reading it - is a side effect. 6.5.1.2 says that unsequenced side effects on the same scalar object (in this case, x) are UB. 6.5.3.3.8 tells us that the evaluations of function arguments are indeterminately sequenced w.r.t. each other."
If function arguments were sequenced with respect to each other, it wouldn't be a problem.
But actually, maybe the original comment is wrong. Presumably "indeterminately sequenced" and "unsequenced" mean different things, although I don't have a copy of the standard at hand to check.
Or just throw an error.
Undefined is also different from "depends on the compiler", because which behavior is chosen can even depend on the circumstances, whatever code appears before and/or after it.
That said, UB in code, such as this example of ordering of reads of volatile parameters being undefined, does not automatically mean that code that uses it is bad. It may very well be that the function being called doesn't misbehave either way.
> It may very well be that the function being called doesn't misbehave either way.
The function being good or bad has nothing to do with the UB. The UB occurs before the function is called.
And yes indeed, C could do what Rust does and define the order of evaluation for function arguments.
If the argument expressions are indeed side-effect-less, the compiler can always make use of the "as-if" rule and legally reorder the computation anyway, for example to alleviate register pressure.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halt_and_Catch_Fire_(computing...
No human without proper tools maybe, but what about seL4? It goes beyond proving the code is UB-free and actually formally verifies the code works as intended. And the code is written in C. (the proofs of course aren't)
The proof is interesting because it goes beyond just proving the C code is correct. For some platforms, they compile the code with an ordinary compiler, and verify that the machine code does what the C code is supposed to do. (that's because just writing correct C code doesn't help you if you trigger a compiler bug)
This works even if the compiler (in this case, GCC) isn't verified - they verify a specific output of the compiler, not that the compiler always generates machine code correctly.
What are you talking about? UB was coined only in the first C standard, in 1989. Prior to that there was no "If you do this, anything can happen". It was "If you do this, that will happen".
Pre 1989, when C did not have a standard, was the behavior unspecified or undefined? That is, of course, a trick question. Because in this context the very definitions of the words come from the standard itself.
Before a language gets a specification, is the de facto specification the five words "you know what I mean"?
The very definition of "UB" in C later became "[…] this document imposes no requirements". Is that not the same thing as "there is to specification (yet)"?
It sounds very zen, but "a non existing specification imposes no requirements".
But I don't think it's meaningful to argue the semantic difference before the (in-context) existence of the words "undefined" vs "unspecified".
> Prior to that there was no "If you do this, anything can happen".
Of course it was. You relied on "common sense".
> It was "If you do this, that will happen".
Haha, of course it wasn't. Before a specification there is neither a definition of "this" nor "that".
Unless you mean ye olde "the compiler implementation is the specification". In which case we'll get dragged into "what even is a language" and "what is the sound of one hand clapping?".
Or, alternatively, it's as true then as it is today. If you go by "GCC x.y.z on platform Z kernel Y, (etc…) is the specification" then there is no UB.
> UB was coined only in the first C standard, in 1989. Prior to that there was no "If you do this, anything can happen".
I.e., the context is, before UB existed as a concept, how would these things be categorized. And I was trying to offer the correction that, before UB existed, it wasn't "all behavior is defined" but rather many behaviors depend on your particular local environment. While that may technically be implementation defined, the current standard requires that implementation defined be documented, and UB-like edge cases were most definitely not documented anywhere consistently in the old days!
Consider, for example, an implementation defined function f() -- which can also diverge/crash horribly, etc.
If I write
Then either we: - print p is true and execute f - do nothingThis is true regardless of if f immediately crashes the computer, nasal demons, whatever -- that's implementation defined.
UB means f may never happen.
And that means the compiler may optimize this to just:
Notice the difference here -- the print never happens!, and g always happens.You can see why this is concerning when you write code like
If doesn't matter what 'p' is in their example. The point is: if 'f' is undefined behavior (rather than just impl-defined), then the optimizer concludes that the "if p { f() }" can never happen... which means that we're allowed to assume that 'if p { ... } else { ... }' (in the first part of the example) will always take the else branch. The compiler will optimize accordingly and just always call g() unconditionally.
It's fair to blame the programmer for the choice of programming in a language like this, if it was in fact their choice. As you've so eloquently put, choosing those languages is essentially equivalent to choosing UB, so starting a new project with one of them is 100% blameworthy when the UB is inevitably found.
The reason for the hack is that very early C compilers just always spill, so you can write MMIO driver code by setting a pointer to point at the MMIO hardware and it actually works because every time you change x the CPU instruction performs a memory write.
Once C compilers got some basic optimisations that obvious "clever" trick stops working because the compiler can see that we're just modifying x over, and over and over, and so it doesn't spill x from a register and the driver doesn't work properly. C's "volatile" keyword is a hack saying "OK compiler, forget that optimisation" which was presumably a few minutes work to implement, whereas the correct fix, providing MMIO intrinsics in the associated library, was a lot of work.
Why should you want intrinsics here? Intrinsics let you actually spell out what's possible and what isn't. On some targets we can actually do a 1-byte 2-byte and 4-byte write, those are distinct operations and the hardware knows, so e.g. maybe some device expects a 4-byte RGBA write and so if you emit four 1-byte writes that's very confusing and maybe it doesn't work, don't do that. On some targets bit-level writes are available, you can say OK, MMIO write to bit 4 of address 0x1234 and it will write a single bit. If you only have volatile there's no way to know what happens or what it means.
As a nit pick, I don't think this is correct use of "spill". Register spilling refers to when a compiler's code generator runs out of registers and needs to store variables in memory instead. In the MMIO case you are reading/writing via a pointer, so this is unrelated to registers and spilling behavior.
Volatile on a non pointer value is not for MMIO, though, that’s typically for concurrency like with interrupts.
The C and C++ languages would be very slow by modern standards if you insist that reading or writing via a pointer must result in immediate fetches or stores to memory.
> Volatile on a non pointer value is not for MMIO, though, that’s typically for concurrency like with interrupts.
You're holding it wrong. Perhaps you've been holding it wrong for so long and so confidently that you've distorted the world around you -- indeed on MSVC on x86 or x86-64 that actually happened -- but, you're still holding it wrong.
Please explain. How would you make the variable backed by a hardware register region? Is this using some sort of linker trick to change where the value lives in memory?
Microsoft's platform was x86 only for years, and because Intel's design pays for a lot more memory ordering by default than most, on Microsoft's platforms just "volatile" would kinda work even though it was the wrong thing, so Microsoft explicitly grandfathered this for x86 and x86-64 only, you are guaranteed the Acquire-Release ordering even though you didn't ask for it with your volatile type qualifier.
If you were actually thinking of POSIX signals or something similar then yeah, the POSIX requirements say volatile will work, seems like a bad idea to me, but your compiler and other tools are likely also built for POSIX so they've read the same documentation.
Source?
People used to use it for thread synchronization before proper memory barrier primitives (see https://mariadb.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/2017-11-Memor... ) were available. It was not entirely reliable for this purpose.
Duff's famous Device, often misunderstood as some insight about memory copying or something silly, was an MMIO hack, it doesn't look like an MMIO hack to us because it doesn't say volatile, but that's because Duff's compiler did not have that keyword, the reason Duff doesn't change the destination pointer is that it's pointing at hardware and the hardware isn't going anywhere, writing different bytes to the same address is I/O.
https://www.gnu.org/software/c-intro-and-ref/manual/html_nod...
You need to distinguish between a UB and a race, and I think that's something that discussions of UB miss. Take any C program and compile it. Then disassemble it. You end up with an Assembly program that doesn't have any UB, because Assembly doesn't have UB.
UB is a property of a source program, not the executable. It means that the spec for the language in which the source is written doesn't assign it any meaning. But the executable that's the result of compiling the program does have a meaning assigned to it by the machine's spec, as machine code doesn't have UB.
A race is a property of the behaviour of a program. So it's true to say that your C program has UB, but the executable won't actually have a race. Of course, a C compiler can compile a program with UB in any way it likes so it's possible it will introduce a race, but if it chooses to compile the program in a way that doesn't introduces another thread, then there won't be a race.
To be pedantic, old hardware like 6502 family chips (Commodore 64, Apple II, etc) had illegal instructions which were often used by programmers, but it was completely up to the chip to do whatever it wanted with those like with UB.
Intentionally, with an expected effect? I'd need a citation for that.
The benefits of being able to do stuff like this when you need to conserve resources are obvious, and common idioms have formed around their use. Check out https://csdb.dk/release/?id=198357
* https://www.nesdev.org/wiki/CPU_unofficial_opcodes#Games_usi...
* https://hitmen.c02.at/files/docs/c64/NoMoreSecrets-NMOS6510U... (doesn't name any software, but some copy protection schemes were already known to use them)
So any instruction or hardware feature would get used, whether it's "officially" documented or not.
I guess that's true if you think of assembly as a more readable form of machine code, but from a practical sense I'd argue that assembly inherits the undefined behaviors of the architecture it represents and the implementations of that architecture it actually builds for.
IIRC the OG Xbox security was broken partially as a result of undefined behaviors in x86 where the AMD CPUs that were used in early development would crash or throw an error or something when execution reached the end of the memory space but the Intel CPU they switched to instead just rolled over and kept executing from 0.
Lots of people mistakenly think that C and C++ are "really flexible" because they let you do "what you want". The truth of the matter is that almost every fancy, powerful thing you think you can do is an absolute minefield of UB.
If you want to be standards correct, yes you have to know the standard well. True. And you can always slip, and learn another gotcha. Also true. But it's still extremely flexible.
Take signed integer overflow, for example. Making it UB might've made sense in the 1970s when PDP-1 owners would've started a fight over having to do an expensive check on every single addition. But it's 2026 now. Everyone settled on two's complement, and with speculative execution the check is basically free anyways. Leaving it UB serves no practical purpose, other than letting the compiler developer skip having to add a check for obscure weird legacy architectures. Literally all it does is serve as a footgun allowing over-eager optimizations to blow up your program.
Although often a source of bugs, C's low-level memory management is indeed a great source of flexibility with lots of useful applications. It's all the other weird little UB things which are the problem. As the article title already states: writing C means you are constantly making use of UB without even realizing it - and that's a problem.
In the end small things do add up, and if you're adding many little things "because it doesn't cost much nowadays" you will end up with slow software and not have one specific bottleneck to look at. I do agree that having the option for checked operations is nice (see C#), but I have needed this behavior (branching on overflow) exactly once so far.
You almost always want to change the behavior to erroring out on overflow. The few cases where overflow really is intended and fine can be handled by explicit opt-out.
And I refuse to buy the argument that "small things add up" in the world where we do string building and parsing every few microseconds. Checked math will have unnoticable impact compared to all the other things we do, in almost every type of program.
Constructing an invalid pointer in rust is UB, yes, but integer wraparound is not.
> What if the integer is used to read the wrong data to a disk, or corrupt data on disk by writing to the wrong location?
Then it is a very bad bug.
> What if the program controls a nuclear power plant and the integer causes the control system to fail, causing memory errors due to radiation from the meltdown?
Then it is a very very bad bug.
> What if the wrapped integer causes the program to output the true name of god, and the programmer, in their last minutes of existence, looks up to see, overhead, without any fuss, the stars going out?
Ok, you got me, this one is UB.
no, it is dereferencing, not constructing, an invalid pointer, that is UB. there is even a safe function provided to construct an invalid but non-null pointer: `https://doc.rust-lang.org/stable/std/ptr/fn.dangling.html`
Using that pointer would be UB, but that is UB, not the addition.
> What if the integer is used to read the wrong data from disk, or corrupt data on disk by writing to the wrong location?
That is a bug, but it is not undefined behavior.
The compiler is not allowed to derive any assumptions from it. It only could if it were UB.
It will probably get omitted, since Undefined Behavior isn't allowed by the C abstract machine, but sadly compilers are allowed to emit code for UB in the source (partly because some UB is only detectable at runtime). Sometimes disabling optimizations will incorrectly allow codegen to run for source lines which have UB, tricking people into thinking that optimizations are breaking their program. Compilers are allowed to do this, since behaviors other than "omit the offending statement" are unfortunately allowed by the standard, so it's not a compiler bug.
Now why you can cook up trivial artificial examples where a compiler will remove some code sections based on statically detected UB, instead of printing an error, you have to ask the compiler authors.
> The semantics are well-defined in both modes.
So they're not the same? So the behaviour is not uniquely defined by the source code alone, but is actually _very_ different based on compile mode? Between two modes whose point was never to have different semantics, but to have the _same_ semantics while being debuggable vs being fast?
> You can predict exactly what will happen in either case. In C, the semantics are not defined at all, you can't predict what will happen and it's allowed to change between compilations of the same source.
You can make the same "predictability" argument for C, you can easily write a compiler that has semantics exactly laid out. Case in point: -fwrapv. Case in point: UBSAN.
Or tell me how you write a Rust program differently given that signed overflow is apparently defined? I bet you write it exactly the same way, and you get pretty much the same behaviour in practice. And we're even only debating actual overflow situations, meaning there is a bug whatever the compiled behaviour is.
C the language doesn't even guarantee that the machine has native integers with 8, 16, 32, 64 bits etc, that a cacheline is 64 bits, that a page is 4K, and here I am, writing programs for exactly that.
It did not.
> It did so in Debug mode where runtime checks were added.
It didn't assume in that case either. It did a well defined thing: add checks.
> If it's not the case in Release mode, does that mean semantics are different between Debug and Release?
Strictly speaking, the language doesn't know about "release mode", as that's a Cargo thing. But yes, in practice, the semantics are different based on various things: it could be debug vs release, it could also be flags that control the behavior. But that's still distinct from "undefined behavior" as a concept. The behavior is well defined, with multiple possible options for behaviors.
You can tune a C compiler as well to have a very specific defined behaviour for integer overflow. You can add -fwrapv or you can add UBSAN.
The user never intended overflow to happen, because if they did, they could have used something like __builtin_mul_overflow() or whatever. Or they are an emotionally unstable user with destructive tendencies. The user also never intended the program to abort with a (nicely formatted) error message, unless they are a very very sad depressed nihilistic user who also never runs their program in Release mode.
To say that overflow would be defined in Rust is at least half a lie. We could agree that cargo has a choice of diagnostic policy though, a policy how to handle what is essentially a state with no defined or useful path forward, or in other words, UB.
Throwing errors might be a wanted property to detect oversights. C ecosystem has UBSAN too! But essentially the same is still true: Basic arithmetic operations are not closed over the numbers 0..2^N. Rust doesn't have a (unique and useful) definition for those operations for a subset of numbers. Even if you claim the operations are defined (say wrapping arithmetic in Release mode), it's not what the programmer wants. Probably the majority of algorithms work over natural numbers or integer numbers. These algorithms don't work when the arithmetic on integers modulo 2^N.
So the user has to constrain the set of valid inputs, and do manual sanitization, just like in C.
This is an example of a compiler flag that adds definition to undefined behavior, which is of course, legal to do. That doesn't change that in the standard, it is undefined behavior, and in Rust, it is not.
> To say that overflow would be defined in Rust is at least half a lie.
In the context of "undefined behavior", it is not a lie at all.
> So the user has to constrain the set of valid inputs, and do manual sanitization, just like in C.
No, because the consequences of how the two languages define these behaviors are very, very different.
Just saying that it's defined and then not saying what the definition is, is no different from saying it's undefined.
> Just saying that it's defined and then not saying what the definition is, is no different from saying it's undefined.
It actually is, because, as I said earlier, “undefined behavior” is a term of art with very specific meaning. Regardless, it is defined: there are two possible behaviors, with one guaranteed with that flag and the other chosen by implementations.
Now are there many cases of UB in C, many more than strictly need to exist on contemporary platforms? For sure there are. But does it affect me? Not unless I need a specific behaviour common to most contemporary platforms that I can't get within the confines of C, even considering compiler specific extensions. Honestly I can't come up with any of the top of my head. Maybe some integer-shifting stuff or such, if the compiler was able to prove I'm doing sth undefined, it can leave out that code (or delete my mail, for the doomers). Personally, it hasn't happened to me, and it's on the compiler authors to not do stupid things too.
Leaving all the semantic hair-splitting aside. What is the practical difference in how you write a Rust program compared to a C program, given that integer overflow is "defined" in Rust?
It did. The compiler added the checks (which panic on overflow, from a quick web search) precisely so it (and importantly, the developer!) can assume the overflow didn't happen in the subsequent code. Unless you consider a panic a defined state, and consider wrap-on-overflow equally valid in all cases, it's essentially the same as UB. (panic seems to be considered "unrecoverable").
Difference is _at most_ that C spec gives compiler more freedom to "implement UB", but then again, hit any unsafe code in Rust with wrapped around integer, you probably have comparable practical result -- machine doing random things, corrupting memory and so on.
But that's completely besides the point. UB on signed overflow, or really most of UB, is not unrelated to C flexibility. It is a detail of the spec related to portability and performance. IIRC it is even required to make such trivial optimizations as turning
into saving arithmetics and saving a register, on architectures where `int` is smaller than pointers. But there is also options like -fwrapv on GCC for example, allowing you to actually use signed overflow.This is also a major blocker for auto-vectorization. Can't coalesce a load of a[i], a[i+1], a[i+2], a[i+3] into a load of a[i:i+3] if there's a possibility that `i+1`, `i+2` or `i+3` wrapped around (thus causing your "contiguous" load to be non-contiguous). This is a big reason why you shouldn't use `unsigned` for loop counters, especially if they're going to be used as an index into an address calculation.
That has nothing to do with not following the standard.
> If you want to be standards correct, yes you have to know the standard well.
to mean that being standards-correct is optional. It's not. Every C programmer needs to know every possible UB by heart and never introduce any of it to their code, or else they'll be constantly introducing subtle, hard to debug bugs that contradict the actual code they wrote.
Maybe you meant something different by those words, but then I'm confused what the "if" was supposed to mean.
But it's not entirely black and white, either. In practice I'm fine accepting that some bugs are technically UB but whatever, we've found a bug by whatever manifestation (like NULL dereference most likely leading to segfault in practice). I just fix the bug as a bug, and life goes on.
The standard is not perfect, it does have shortcomings. It can be improved. And it can be interpreted to fix some issues. Let's not hold theory over practicality, and let's expect the compiler writers also strive to do the reasonable thing.
To paraphrase your earlier comment - you lose low-friction polymorphism (unpredictable compiler output causes a lot of friction). You lose control of memory allocations (because they may have been elided) and lose control of lifetimes (because free can be moved before last use causing a crash, or removed entirely causing a leak). You lose control of (almost) anything that happens in the system. And it has everything to do with not following the standard.
You do retain control of the memory layout of data structures, though.
On the other hand, what I've observed with my own eyes is interesting phenomenons like performance drops, e.g. memory bandwidth dropping from gigabytes/sec to 300 KB/sec due to false sharing on an ARM SOC for example.
There was some function that read from a passed pointer unconditionally whether it's null or not. It made sense in context. Then it checked if the pointer is null - if it is do early return, if it's not do privileged operation. The pointer was null iff the user didn't have permissions to do the operation.
What GCC did is notice that a pointer is accessed before its null check. Since accessing a null pointer is UB, and GCC assumes UB never happens, it figured out the null check is superfluous. And removed the check and the early return. The pointer read stayed, mind you. The optimized function would unconditionally read from the pointer even if it's null, then unconditionally execute the privileged operation without checking permissions. That allowed obtaining root access from anywhere.
I saw a few other writeups of interesting UB behavior on The Old New Thing blog. I especially like the time travel one: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20140627-00/?p=63... (apologies to people of the future, links to MS devblogs tend to die often).
Maybe this already exists, even? A stripped down version of C? A more advanced LLVM IR? I feel like this is a problem that could use a resolution, just maybe not with enough of a scale for anyone to bother, vs. learning C, assembly of given architecture, or one of the new and fancy compiled languages.
[0] https://github.com/project-everest/vale
[1] https://nickbenton.name/coqasm.pdf
Rust is a somewhat more thorough attempt to actually course-correct.
Well, sure, that's what volatile means - that the value may be changed by something else. If it's a global variable then the something else might be an interrupt or signal handler, not just another thread. If it's a pointer to something (i.e. read from a specific address) then that could be a hardware device register who's value is changing.
The concept of a volatile variable isn't the problem - any language that is going to support writing interrupt routines and memory mapped I/O needs to have some way of telling the compiler "don't optimize this out" since reading from the same hardware device register twice isn't like reading from the same memory location twice.
I think the problem here is more that not all of the interactions between language features and restrictions have been fully thought out. It's pretty stupid to be able to explicity tell the language "this value can change at any time", and for it to still consider certain uses of that value as UB since it can change at any time! There should have been a carve out in the "unsequenced side effect" definitions for volatile variables.
As noted, there’s almost 300 usages of the word undefined in the standard. Believing that it’s possible to correctly define all the carve outs necessary correctly and have the compiler implement the carve outs successfully is about as logical as believing UB is humanly avoidable in written code.
That said, your “common parlance” definition of “data race” is not the definition used by the C standard, so your last sentence is at best misleading in a discussion of standard C.
> The execution of a program contains a data race if it contains two conflicting actions in different threads, at least one of which is not atomic, and neither happens before the other. Any such data race results in undefined behavior.
(Here “conflicting” and “happens before” are defined in the preceding text.)
However, this is not at all what UB means in C (or C++). The compiler is free to optimize away the entire block of code where this printf() sequence occurs, by the logic that it would be UB if the program were to ever reach it.
For example, the following program:
Can be optimized to always print "y is 8" by a perfectly standard compliant compiler.I don’t see how. I was trying to explain why it’s reasonable for a volatile read to be a side effect, after which the C rule on unsequenced side effects applies, yielding UB as you say.
> An object that has volatile-qualified type may be modified in ways unknown to the implementation or have other unknown side effects. Therefore any expression referring to such an object shall be evaluated strictly according to the rules of the abstract machine, as described in 5.1.2.3. Furthermore, at every sequence point the value last stored in the object shall agree with that prescribed by the abstract machine, except as modified by the unknown factors mentioned previously.
A compliant compiler is only free to optimise away, where it can determine there are no side-effects. But volatile in 5.1.2.3 has:
> Accessing a volatile object, modifying an object, modifying a file, or calling a function that does any of those operations are all side effects.
GCC calls that out [0] - volatile means things in memory may not be what they appear to be, and that there are asynchronous things happening, so something that may not appear to be possible, may become so, because volatile is a side-effect.
So about the only optimisation allowed to happen, is combining multiple references.
Clang is similar:
> The compiler does not optimize out any accesses to variables declared volatile. The number of volatile reads and writes will be exactly as they appear in the C/C++ code, no more and no less and in the same order.
[0] https://www.gnu.org/software/c-intro-and-ref/manual/html_nod...
But feel free to run against the various compilers through godbolt. [0] They won't optimise the branch away. Access to a volatile, must be preserved, in the order that they exist. No optimisation, UB or otherwise, is allowed to impede that. Because an access is a side-effect.
[0] https://godbolt.org/z/85cGhq3Ta
I quoted the C standard, first. Not compiler behaviour.
I showed where it requires the compiler not to optimise this.
How about, instead of one-line throwaway disagreements, you point out where they are permitted to do this, instead?
> A compliant compiler is only free to optimise away, where it can determine there are no side-effects
A compliant compiler is also allowed to assume UB cannot occur.
Unfortunately it's not that simple when it comes to UB. If the snippet in question does in fact exhibit UB then there's no guarantee whatever Godbolt shows will generalize to other programs/versions/compilers/environments/etc.
A) x is always removed.
B) no, it's never removed if volatile.
But neither person can prove what a compiler will actually do, despite claiming they'll always act a certain way given 5 lines of code.
All popular modern C++ compilers have known bugs and while I'm sure there are C compilers with no known bugs that will be because nobody tested very hard.
What you observe a compiler do when there's UB is not at all something you can rely on.
Volatile means something else may be acting here. Something else may install anything into the register at any time - and every time you access.
The compiler is required to preserve the order of accesses. In almost every C compiler, today, there are almost no optimisations the moment a volatile is introduced, for this reason.
The execution path has unknown side effects, and so the execution path must be strictly followed. That's uh... The entire point of that section in the C standard. Its why volatile is called out, in the semantic model for the abstract machine.
Otherwise... Why call it out, at all? It must be strictly followed, not lazily, as in other areas of the standard.
UB supersedes volatile, once the compiler hits UB then all bets are off. Compilers can and do optimize out UB branches, which is almost never what you want... yet here we are.
>> The moment you enter a compilation unit (assuming no link optimizations) with a state which at some point will run into undefined behavior all bets are of. [...] Yes, UB can "time travel"
> Close, but not quite. This is a common misconception in the reverse direction.
> Abstractly, what UB can do is performing the inverse of the preceding instructions, effectively making the abstract machine run in reverse. However, this is only equivalent to "time-traveling" until you get to the point of the last side effect (where "side effect" here refers to predefined operations in the standard that interact with the external world, such as I/O and volatile accesses), because only everything since that point can be optimized away under the as-if rule without altering the externally visible effects of the program.
> As a concrete, practical example, this means the following: if you do fflush(stdout); return INT_MAX + 1; the compiler cannot omit the fflush() call merely because the subsequent statement had undefined behavior. That is, the UB cannot time-travel to before the flush. What the program can do is to write garbage to the file afterward, or attempt to overwrite what you wrote in the file to revert it to its previous state, but the fflush() must still occur before anything wild happens. If nobody observes the in-between state, then the end result can look like time-travel, but if the system blocks on fflush() and the user terminates the program while it's blocked, there is no opportunity for UB.
> The initialization shall occur in initializer list order, each initializer provided for a particular subobject overriding any previously listed initializer for the same subobject
And what I am trying to tell people, is the standard has expectations around the volatile keyword, that the compilers took into account when designing how they would work - it isn't just kindness, its compliance. But no one is actually talking about the quotes from the standard, and just quoting themselves and their own understandings.
And no, there is no exception for undefined behavior. There can't be, otherwise the behavior would be... defined. It's in the name. Again, what do you think the compiler emits when the undefined behavior causes the program to not compile altogether?
>unsequenced side effects on the same scalar object are UB
>6.5.3.3.8 tells us that the evaluations of function arguments are indeterminately sequenced w.r.t. each other.
Read 5.1.2.4.3:
"If A is not sequenced before or after B, then A and B are unsequenced."
"Evaluations A and B are indeterminately sequenced when A is sequenced either before or after B, but it is unspecified which."
With a footnote saying this:
"9)The executions of unsequenced evaluations can interleave. Indeterminately sequenced evaluations cannot interleave, but can be executed in any order."
I.e the standard makes a distinction between "unsequenced" and "indeterminately sequenced". And with no mention of side effects on "indeterminately sequenced" being UB it leads me to conclude that your example is not UB.
Well, yes; but when the C standard authors wrote like this, they surely had in mind "the reads could be in either order, therefore the output could display the polled values in either order". Not C++ nasal demons.
And yeah, being able to say "reading is a side effect" is important when for example you interact with certain memory-mapped devices.
Edit: thread=thread of execution. I’m not making a point about thread safety within a program.
I'm also not convinced (yet) that the example really is UB: I agree reading a volatile is "a side effect" in some sense, and GP cited a paragraph that says just that. But GP doesn't clearly quote that it's a side effect on the object (or how a side effect on an object is defined). Reading an object doesn't mutate it after all.
But whatever language lawyer things, the code is obviously broken, with an obvious fix, so I'm not so interested in what its semantics should be. Here is the fix:
C could've specified something like "arguments are evaluated left-to-right" or "if two arguments have the same expression, the expression is [only evaluated once]/[always evaluated twice]". But it didn't, so the developer is left gingerly navigating a minefield every time they use volatile.
Of course the developer is navigating a minefield every time they use volatile, that's why it's called "volatile" - an English word otherwise only commonly used in chemistry, where it means "stuff that wants to go boom".
All you've achieved is that the standard C function call syntax can no longer be used as is.
The problem is simply that the there are two volatile reads where only one was intended. It doesn't matter if there is UB or not. The code doesn't express the intention either way. All you need to know to understand that is that volatile might be modified concurrently (a little bit similar but not the same semantics as atomics).
See my comment here - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48205760
If you are using volatile you are reading from a device port mapped to that address.
Since C doesn't mandate in which order function arguments are evaluated, you don't know which argument will be read from port first.
How can that be anything but UB?
The lack of argument sequencing feels utterly petty however.
It is important to understand that this is a C level problem: if you have UB in your C program, then your C program is broken, i.e., it is formally invalid and wrong, because it is against the C language spec. UB is not on the HW, it has nothing to do with crashes or faults. That cast from void* to int* most likely corresponds to no code on the HW at all -- types are in C only, not on the HW, so a cast is a reinterpretation at C level -- and no HW will crash on that cast (because there is not even code for it). You may think that an integer value in a register must be fine, right? No, because it's not about pointers actually being integers in registers on your HW, but your C program is broken by definition if the cast pointer is unaligned.
> an unaligned pointer in itself is UB
Yup. Per the "Actually, it was UB even before that" section in the post.
> UB is not on the HW, it has nothing to do with crashes or faults
Yeah. I tried to convey this too, but I'm also addressing the people who say "but it's demonstrably fine", by giving examples. Because it's not.
It's perfectly reasonable to expect any load through `int*` to just load 4 bytes from memory, done and done. They get surprised that it is far from the whole story, and the result is UB.
Meanwhile, the actual computers we have been using for decades have no problems actually just loading 4 bytes through any arbitrary pointer with zero overhead. But no.
I'd clarify this with "They understand that all values are just bytes".
> Meanwhile, the actual computers we have been using for decades have no problems actually just loading 4 bytes through any arbitrary pointer with zero overhead.
It's partly the standards fault here - rather than saying "We don't know how vendors will implement this, so we shall leave it as implementation-defined", they say "We don't know how vendors will implement this, so we will leave it as undefined".
A clear majority of the UB problems with C could be fixed if the standards committee slowly moved all UB into IB. It's not that there isn't any progress (Signed twos-complement is coming, after all), it's that there is (I believe) much pushback from compiler authors (who dominate the standards) who don't want to make UB into IB.
There is no such thing as getting rid of "all UB."
What behavior is the implementation supposed to prescribe for a write to an unpredictable garbage address you read from the network? It could overwrite your code. It could overwrite any value anywhere. It could overlap with anything. Prescribing defined behavior for absolutely everything would require defining a precise, unoptimizable 1-to-1 mapping to assembly code and disallowing any multithreading.
"The compiler is not allowed to elide a write to a garbage address".
Wasn't that easy?
Hence, "undefined behavior," of the entire program, not just that particular write.
"Going past the end of the array results in addressing arbitrary values" I can live with. "Going past the end of an array results in anything happening" is a hard sell.
Once you are addressing arbitrary values you are firmly in the realm of "anything happening" in practice, but you've now given up optimization opportunities. As has been repeatedly demonstrated over the years, once memory safety breaks it is practically impossible to make any guarantees about program behavior.
Your compiler emitting a load operation and it failing isn't "anything". The failure being handled by code that the compiler authors can't predict doesn't make it "anything".
And if you lose optimization opportunities because of this it's because your optimization is broken. By the way, if you lose optimization opportunities because of this, that means both codes are meaningfully different and you knew it all the time.
https://daniel.haxx.se/blog/2016/10/14/a-single-byte-write-o...
And if you get code execution, then you by definition have "anything".
Documenting that the instructions to access will always be eliminated makes it easier to predict what will happen.
For example, a dynamically linked library that takes in a pointer, and then writes to the 10 ints after it—whether or not this behavior is defined is determined after that library is compiled, right?
But just because those forms are common, doesn't mean the behavior is actually defined.
Ex - I might be using a vendor specific compiler for custom embedded devices where dynamic linking isn't available at all, and which might have complicated storage mechanisms that look nothing like standard memory pages.
You're already deep into the bowels of implementation specific behavior by the time we talk about dynamic linking. The C standard doesn't have anything to say about it at all.
My read on the above conversation is basically a discussion about asking/requiring vendors to properly document their implementation, as opposed to leaving it undocumented (the default - given my experience with hardware manufacturers...).
I don't think the real takeaway is that "instructions should be eliminated in case [blah blah blah]" it's that "Something is going to happen, please tell me what that is on your system, instead of leaving it as UB" (Basically - make UB in the standard implementation defined behavior from the vendor).
My read is that this won't happen because it's genuinely incredibly difficult to do, and this isn't a space overflowing with capital to allocate to the problem. But I do think there's merit to the idea of pushing vendors to provide coverage in this space AT SOME POINT.
"Can't always be detected" is jut a different way of saying "Can sometimes be detected".
Upon detection, I'd rather that the compiler still emit the instructions, not elide the code altogether.
That does not seem like an improvement if your goal is predictable, consistent behavior.
> That does not seem like an improvement if your goal is predictable, consistent behavior.
Getting unpredictable outcomes only on some items is better than getting unpredictable outcomes on every item. This is what I meant when I said moving UB to IB might not fix everything, but it is certainly a solid start!
For the former, I kinda get it. It may need to be there for cases like with segmented address space where p+10 could actually be a value less than p, for the eventually generated assembly. Maybe it should be fine to create such a pointer, but have it be "indeterminate value" or whatever, if you try to compare that pointer to anything? I don't know enough about compiler internals to say one way or the other.
Dereferencing, though, can only be UB. There may not be a "value" behind that address. There may be a motor that's been I/O mapped, or a self destruct button.
Right now, if a dereference results in UB, the compiler may omit it entirely.
I know what you mean, but I'm just not sure you're describing something that fits what C "is". We program C to the abstract machine specified in the standard (5.1.2), and the compiler's job is to translate that into something with identical behavior on particular hardware. Piercing the layers down to actual hardware or assembly isn't really done.
Even "volatile" just says (basically) "touching this object has side effects". It implies no double-loading, speculative store, etc, but doesn't say "don't emit assembly instructions to load this unless the program logic path takes the route where the C program does load it".
The standard is not using ancient language when it refers to "objects with static storage duration" instead of "heap" or ".data segment". It is the true class of objects in the abstract machine.
I'd agree to a point. I still think it's unreasonable for compiler writers to get all lawyery about precise terminology. After all "implementation defined" could still be subject to the same lawyeriness (we implemented it, ergo we define it).
To me this is an issue of culture. We need to push back against the view that UB means anything can happen, therefore the compiler can do anything.
That said, I think there are many cases where compilers could make a better effort to link UB they're optimizing against to UB that appears in the code as originally authored and emit a diagnostic or even error out. But at least we've got ubsan and friends so it seems like things are within reason if not optimal.
Well I think there is a tension here. C is the language for microcontrollers and the language for high performance.
In ye olden days both groups interests were aligned because speed in C was about working with the machine. Now the UB has been highjacked for speed, that microcontroller that I'm working on, where I know and int will overflow and rely on that is UB so may be optimised out, so I then have to think about what the compiler may do.
I wouldn't say C is the wrong language. I would say there are wrong compilers though.
I am skeptical that NULL-pointer checks being removed contribute anything more than a rounding error in performance gains in any non-trivial program.
A standard way to eliminate those is to invoke undefined behavior if some condition is not met;
Which then allows elimination of the null check in later code, possibly after inlining some function.Being able to assume certain things don't happen is powerful when you're writing optimisations, not doing that would have a real performance cost
A few of those are significant performance gains, the majority are not.
Emitting the instruction for a NULL pointer dereference is effectively no more costly than not emitting that instruction.
It's the code removal that's killing me.
Compilers optimise in multiple passes and removing things earlier can expose optimisation opportunities later that can affect other parts of the code too
Then it should warn "unreachable code".
> and then significantly improve the surrounding function because of that?
It's not simply the removal that is the problem, it's that the code is silently removed.
Direct link to part 3 (but read the others first for context if you can): https://blog.llvm.org/2011/05/what-every-c-programmer-should...
You don’t want warnings for every piece of code in a library you’re not using or sanity check you added that isn’t supposed to be hit
And you can’t warn when you’re optimising based on undefined behaviour because you can’t know when it will happen, that is equivalent to the halting problem
If you warned whenever undefined behaviour could be happening then e.g. every single pointer deference would say “warning: compiling assuming pointer is not null or unaligned”
I have read the entire series. Both in the past and more recently.
> If you warned whenever undefined behaviour could be happening then e.g. every single pointer deference would say “warning: compiling assuming pointer is not null or unaligned”
I am not proposing that at all, I am proposing (which the series you link to does not preclude) that eliding code on the basis of UB can be determined by the compiler. If the compiler can determine that some code block needs to be elided, then the reason for that elision has already been determined, in which case it can issue a warning when "reason" == "pointer already used" when eliding the null check.
If you include a library function with a null check that gets inlined you probably don’t want a bunch of warnings there for code you don’t even control
It's undefined so it doesn't have to be zeroed therefore increasing efficiency.
But it's also UB so if you do know that memory contains something, you can't take advantage of that because it's UB. Having it UB is fine. It's the compilers assuming UB can't happen and optimising it away.
Not if those 4 bytes span a cacheline boundary, that will most likely result in 1/2 throughput compared to loading values inside a single cacheline. And if it causes cache-misses it takes up twice the L2 or L3 bandwidth.
Even worse, if the int spans two pages, it will need two TLB lookups. If it's a hot variable and the only thing you use from those pages, it even uses up an additional TLB entry, that could otherwise be used for better perf elsewhere, etc.
And if you're on embedded (and many C programs are), Cortex-M CPUs either can't handle unaligned accesses (M0, M0+) or take 2-3 times as long (split the load into 2x2 byte or 1x2 + 2x1 byte)
And crucially until DR#260 https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/dr_260.htm this was a reasonable guess as to what the pointers are. Probably not a wise guess because it's not how your C compiler worked even then, but a reasonable guess if you didn't think too hard about this.
One way I like to think about this is that all C's types are just the machine integers wearing crap Halloween costumes. Groucho glasses for bool, maybe a Lincoln hat for char, float and double can be bright orange make-up and a long tie. But the pointers are different, because unlike the other types those have provenance.
5 == 5, 'Z' == 'Z', true == true, 1.5f == 1.5f, but whether two pointers are equivalent does not depend solely on their bit pattern in C.
Just creating the pointer, though, should not be UB, even though it apparently is. It should not even be IB.
PCs yes, but there are many other things C is compiled to for which this is not true.
Can someone point to where the standard states this?
> If the resulting pointer is not correctly aligned for the pointed-to type, the behavior is undefined.
However, unless I’m missing something, producing such a pointer from an integer is apparently not insta-UB? 6.3.2.2.5:
> An integer may be converted to any pointer type. Except as previously specified, the result is implementation-defined, might not be correctly aligned, might not point to an entity of the referenced type, and might be a trap representation
And later on 6.5.3.2.4:
> If an invalid value has been assigned to the pointer, the behavior of the unary * operator is undefined.
Which implies that the invalid pointer must have been obtained without being already undefined, right?
This type of UB is fine and nobody really complains about hardware differences leading to bugs.
However, over time aggressive readings of UB evolved C into an implicit "Design by Contract" language where the constraints have become invisible. This creates a similar problem to RAII, where the implicit destructor calls are invisible.
When you dereference a pointer in C, the compiler adds an implicit non-nullable constraint to the function signature. When you pass in a possibly nullable pointer into the function, rather than seeing an error that there is no check or assertion, the compiler silently propagates the non-nullable constraint onto the pointer. When the compiler has proven the constraints to be invalid, it marks the function as unreachable. Calls to unreachable functions make the calling function unreachable as well.
You're conflating undefined behavior with implementation-defined behavior. If it was only to do with what we think of as normal variance between processors, then it would be easy to make it implementation-defined behavior instead.
The differentiating factor of undefined behavior is that there are no constraints on program behavior at that point, and it was introduced to handle cases where processor or compiler behavior cannot be meaningfully constrained. One key class is of course hardware traps: in the presence of compiler optimizations, it is effectively impossible to make any guarantees about program state at the time of a trap (Java tried, and most people agreed they failed); but even without optimizations, there are processors that cannot deliver a trap at a precise point of execution and thus will continue to execute instructions after a trapping instruction.
It's not only C-level is it. There's no (guarantee across architectures for) machine code for that either.
You can, and the results are machine specific, clearly defined and well-documented. Ancient ARM raises an exception, modern ARM and x86 can do it with a performance penalty. It's only the C or C++ layer that is allowed to translate the code into arbitrary garbage, not the CPU.
This is exactly what the compilers do if you use a packed structure to access unaligned data. Works everywhere, as expected. Compilers have always known what to do, they just weren't doing it. C standard says no.
The fact is the standard is garbage and the first thing every C programmer should learn is that they can and should ignore it. There is never any reason to wonder what the standard is supposed to do. The only thing that matters is what compilers actually do.
Would have been better if correct behavior was the default while pointer alignment requirements were opt in, just like vector stuff. Nothing we can do about it now.
I would hope the compiler is smart enough to figure out which accesses are aligned and unaligned on its own.
Wouldn't the compiler have to assume that every pointer access might be unaligned and do the slow "piece by piece" access every time? It can hardly guess the runtime value of a pointer during compilation.
If compiler is not doing it for some reason, __builtin_assume_aligned can be used to explicitly mark a pointer as aligned.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48205371
Wrote a lisp, its bytes type supports reading and writing integers at arbitrary locations within the buffer. Test suite exercises aligned and unaligned memory access for every C integer type. Also wrote my own mem* functions, dealing with alignment in those was certainly a fun exercise. It wasn't necessary, I just wanted the performance benefits.
I would hope you're not so stupid as to design hardware that relies on this, but the fact is it certainly is possible for someone to do that. And if you do that, there is nothing that the compiler or the standard can do. It can't be done correctly
> And in that time, the value of one of the two addresses that the hardware has to load can change.
You mean volatile addresses that could spontaneously change in the middle of the reads? Like memory mapped I/O addresses?
I would expect these to have stricter access requirements than arbitrary general purpose memory locations.
> I would hope you're not so stupid as to design hardware that relies on this
You and me both.
> And if you do that, there is nothing that the compiler or the standard can do. It can't be done correctly
Anything that does that is broken and terrible anyway. It really shouldn't contaminate language design. It's the sort of thing that compilers should be adding attributes for, rather than constraining the language to the point nothing works correctly and making us use attributes on everything to restore some sane baseline behavior.
which is why it is undefined behaviour. the optimizer writers have told me consistently that if they can assume you're not doing this thing that's stupid anyway, they can make my code faster. And since I'm not doing that stupid thing anyway, I want my code to be faster.
Compilers can add some custom attributes that encode whatever semantics the badly designed hardware requires. This lets it freely break incorrect code in the small sections that are actually handling those special variables, while allowing the rest of the language to make sense.
LMAO what?!
The compiler should pessimize each and every memory access everywhere with an alignment check on the pointer and a branch, or forego the efficient memory access method of the platform entirely and just do bytewise loads only?!
Yes, making alignment part of the type system would be the correct fix. And yes, that's absolutely still possible since unaligned access is still UB. You're not breaking existing code. You could easily add new pointer types with (static) alignment information.
You could also mandate that a compiler for architectures without unaligned access either has to prove that the access is going to be aligned or insert a wrapper to turn the unaligned access into two aligned ones.
Just pretending the issue doesn't exist at all and making it the programmer's problem by leaving it as UB in the spec is a choice.
you're betting against the compiler ever improving.
But then I would assume you are aware of unaligned pointers, and have a sane way to parse that data, rather than read individual parts of it from a raw pointer.
I am curious, what would be a legitimate reason for an unaligned pointer to int?
I don’t see any reason why it wouldn’t be perfectly fine on recent hardware, where unaligned loads are just as fast, and the cache pressure is identical for a linear search algorithm.
Doing unaligned loads using SSE or AVX might have been possible on Intel architectures for a long time, but it is still a little bit slower afaik. But anyway when you get into sub-architecture specific details like that, you've essentially left C-land, and you're essentially doing assembler level programming.
Using unaligned loads, you can get rid of the prelude, including the associated branches and intptr arithmetic, and just have to deal with the tail.
If you're comparing short-ish strings, almost all of the time is spent in the prelude and postlude, even if the entire substring fits in a register. This is a silly language limitation when the hardware can actually easily just support the unaligned load.
In particular, it doesn't seem justified that what at most amounts to a tiny inefficiency in hardware turns into a very expensive class of bugs (UB).
But anyway, you're complaining that you have to work too hard to do unaligned loads (i.e. the wrong thing even if it should work on a particular machine) in C, when basically every other language makes you work more for basic systems programming tasks?
Whether unaligned loads can work on the machine level, it depends on the hardware. On some other architectures, you probably get anything from traps to unpredictable behaviour. It's totally fine that C does not define the behaviour for unaligned loads.
If you want to do some weird stuff like loading a single unaligned 16 byte quantity, where there was no "middle part" to begin with, just do memcpy then. The compiler might just do the appropriate thing on this architecture. Or if you need to closely control what's happened, write assembly then. But again, why would you even do this?
-Denial: "I know what signed overflow does on my machine."
-Anger: "This compiler is trash! why doesn't it just do what I say!?"
-Bargaining: "I'm submitting this proposal to wg14 to fix C..."
-Depression: "Can you rely on C code for anything?"
-Acceptance: "Just dont write UB."
Unaligned access? Packed structs. Compiler will magically generate the correct code, as if it had always known how to do it right all along! Because it has, in fact, always known how to do it right. It just didn't.
Strict aliasing? Union type punning. Literally documented to work in any compiler that matters, despite the holy C standard never saying so. Alternatively, just disable it straight up: -fno-strict-aliasing. Enjoy reinterpreting memory as you see fit. You might hit some sharp edges here and there but they sure as hell aren't gonna be coming from the compiler.
Overflow? Just make it defined: -fwrapv. Replace +, -, * with __builtin_*_overflow while you're at it, and you even get explicit error checking for free. Nice functional interface. Generates efficient code too.
The "acceptance" stage is really "nobody sane actually cares about the C standard". The standard is garbage, only the compilers matter. And it turns out that compilers have plenty of extremely useful functions that let you side step most if not all of this. People just don't use this because they want to write "portable" "standard" C. The real acceptance is to break out of that mindset.
Somehow I built an entire lisp interpreter in freestanding C that actually managed to pass UBSan just by following the above logic. I was actually surprised at first: I expected it to crash and burn, but it didn't. So if I can do it, then anyone can do it too.
A better way to think about UB is as a contract between developer and implementation, so that the implementations can more easily reason about the code. How would you optimize:
(x * 2) / 2
An optimizer can optimize this out for a signed integer, because it doesn't have to consider overflow, but with a unsigned integer it can not. UB is a big reason why C is the most power efficient high level language.
I'd do the math myself and just write x.
I don't even use * for multiplication anymore, I use __builtin_mul_overflow and then check the result. Anyone who doesn't is gonna hit the overflow case one day, and they'll be lucky if their program isn't exploited because of it. I've been making an effort to use all the overflow checking builtins by default in most if not all cases. I've also been making Claude audit every single bare arithmetic operation in my projects. He's caught quite a few security issues already, and overflow checking dealt with them all.
This particular contract between developer and implementation is totally worthless and doing more harm than good. It encompasses regular everyday normal things like multiplication and addition. All things that our brains literally rely on in order to reason about the code. Can't even add numbers without the compiler screwing it up.
Programmers need to deal with overflow at all times. Can't calculate an offset without dealing with overflow. Can't calculate a size without dealing with overflow. It's simply everywhere in systems programming, which is what C was designed to do. The consequence of ignoring this is usually that your program gets mercilessly exploited.
All this for some efficiency gains. The cost/benefit analysis is way off here. Things should be correct, first and foremost. Then the compiler should give us the necessary sharp tools to make it fast, if needed. It shouldn't be making it fast at the cost of turning the entire language into a memetic vulnerability machine.
What happens is that after a few common expression eliminations, peephole optmisations, code inlining, and possibly other optimisation passes, the remaining AST will be (x * 2) / 2, and then the magic happens.
I simply accepted the fact that the magic might stop happening at (x * 2) / 2. This acceptance bought me certainty about overflow behavior. I think it was a good tradeoff.
There is no reason whatsoever that C can't be improved. Compiler attributes and builtins are already doing quite a lot of heavy lifting. Recent addition: counted_by, an attribute that allows compilers to properly track the size of memory referenced by pointers. All C programmers should be making liberal use of this stuff.
Packed structs are dangerous. You can do unaligned accesses through a packed type, but once you take the address of your misaligned int field, then you are back into UB territory. Very annoying in C++ when you try to pass the a misaligned field through what happens to be generic code that takes a const reference, as it will trigger a compiler warning. Unary operator+ is your friend.
Gotta work with the structure directly by taking the address of the packed structure itself.
Taking the address of the field inside the structure essentially casts away the alignment information that was explicitly added to stop the compiler from screwing things up. So it should not be done.Mercifully, both gcc and clang emit address-of-packed-member warnings if it's done. So the packed structures are effectively turning silently broken nonsense code into sensible warnings. Major win.
It does say so, actually, since C99 TC3 (DR 283).
Something that bothers me is the Venn diagram of people that think abstraction is slow and error prone and people that only write portable C.
How many C implementations do you actually need to compile against? I don't think I've seen more than 3 outside Unix software from the 90s. Using non portable extensions is in fact totally doable for your application and you should probably do it, and just duplicate/triplicate code where you have to. It's not that hard to write and not hard to read.
Nowadays most are indeed clang and GCC forks, or MSVC.
It can be left as implementation defined, which means that the compiler can't simply do arbitrary things, it needs to document what it would do.
Take, for example, signed-integer overflow: currently a compiler can simply refuse to emit the code in one spot while emitting it in another spot in the same compilation unit! Making it IB means that the compiler vendor will be forced to define what happens when a signed-integer overflows, rather than just saying, as they do now, "you cannot do that, and if you do we can ignore it, correct it, replace it or simply travel back in time and corrupt your program".
> Somehow I built an entire lisp interpreter in freestanding C that actually managed to pass UBSan just by following the above logic. I was actually surprised at first: I expected it to crash and burn, but it didn't. So if I can do it, then anyone can do it too.
Same here; I built a few non-trivial things that passed the first attempt at tooling (valgrind, UBsan with tests, fuzzing, etc) with no UB issues found.
So we have the next best thing: builtins and flags. So long as those cover all the undefined behavior there is, we can live with it. Compiler gets to be "conformant" and we get to do useful things without the compiler folding the code into itself and inside out.
> -Acceptance: "Just dont write UB."
The point of my article is that this is not possible. This cannot be our end state, as long as humans are the ones writing the code. No human can avoid writing UB in C/C++.
Ok, let's try it. I pointed GPT 5.5 at the smallest part of cosmopolitan as I could find in two seconds, net/finger. 299 lines.
describesyn.c:66: q + 13 constructs a pointer that can point well beyond the array plus one element.
C23 6.5.6p9:
> If the pointer operand and the result do not point to elements of the same array object or one past the last element of the array object, the behavior is undefined
Now… you may be trolling, but I do feel like this disproves your assertion. Not you, not me, not Theo de Raadt, can avoid UB.
> the compiler generating code that checks for pointer overflow.
Do you need to check for that specifically? What pointer are you constructing that is not either pointing at a valid object correctly aligned (not UB), or exactly one past the element of an array?
Do you mean for the latter, in case you have an array that ends on the maximum expressible pointer address?
I'm a bit unclear on what you mean by "pointer overflow". From mentioning 56 bit address spaces I'm guessing you mean like the pointer wrapped, not what I pointed to in cosmopolitan, above?
Ok, to be clear that it's not just that one type, if you forgive that one:
net/http/base32.c:64: read sc[0] even if sl=0. I assume this is never called with sl=0, so could be fine.
net/http/ssh.c:355: pointer address underflow? Should that be `e - lp`?
net/http/ssh.c:209/229: double destroy of key. can this code path have non-null members, meaning double free? Looks like it, since line 207 does the parsing and checks that parse worked.
net/http/ssh.c:123: uses memset, which assumes that it sets member variable pointers to NULL (per my post, depending on that means depending on UB), and later these pointers are given to free(), so that's UB.
I won't look deeper into net/http, but presenting just the possibly incorrect remaining comments from jippity:
Does this depend on the project, or part of a project? I'm wondering how far that scales, I don't know labor intensive it is -- maybe you can just look at the output and see that nothing funny is happening?
Just switch to a saner language.
And before I get attacked for being a Rust shill, I meant Java :P
The bar is so low it's floating near the center of the Earth.
If all you want is C but less insane then the obvious answer here is Zig.
If all somebody want is a turn key replacement to C/C++ ecosystem, then there is nothing like that in the world that I’m aware of.
Zig has orders of magnitude less undefined behavior and orders of magnitude more memory safety than C. It's not a binary situation.
And where's the fun in that?
Unedefined behaviour means "we couldn’t settle on a best default trade-off with fine-tuning as a given option so we let everyone in the unknown".
Because the last time I looked it appeared to need some godawful slow bytecode interpreter that took up thousands of kilobytes of RAM.
https://www.graalvm.org/latest/reference-manual/native-image...
In the past you could use e.g. Excelsior JET.
We've long since reached a point where chips are cheap enough to be disposable. They are included in paper transit tickets and price tags. There is basically no market left where your volume is small enough that custom application-specific ICs aren't an option, but your volume is large enough that the cost of a few additional kilobytes of memory isn't massively outweighed by the developer time saved.
Want several megabytes of RAM and flash to run Java? That's the price of a cup of coffee!
Do they run at single-digit nA current draw?
I don't think you will program such device in C, rather in assembly, right? When you have like memory for 500 commands, it is easier to go directly to assembler, anyway, with such hardware as a target you don't need portability, this code is 100% hardware-dependable, at it is perfectly Ok.
BTW, which uC your have in mind when you talk about single-digit nA draw (in running state? in deep sleep?), because old 8-bit architectures typically are designed for older node processes and not as energy effective as new one, and draw in sleep doesn't depend much on RAM or FLASH size or architecture, it is more design philosophy.
Anyway, PIC16LF (20nA in deep sleep) or 8051 clone (50nA in deep sleep) or STM8 (~0.30 uA in halt) or ATtinys (100nA in deep sleep), which are covered by "768 bytes of flash and 64 bytes of RAM" description are comparable with EFM32 ARM32-M0+ (20nA in deep sleep), same with uA/Mhz, but ARM32-M0+ will do much more work for each Mhz, so it will be more efficient in the end (faster does all work and go to sleep again).
Did you looked at java 1.2 at 1998 last time? Because after that there is compiler which produce some very efficient profile-guide-optimized code and do tricks like de-virtualization which is not possible with static compiler with support of multiple compilation units (like C++).
Really, there was time in history when HotSpot-compiled JVM bytecode was faster than everything that gcc could produce for comparable tasks. Yes, now this gap is reversed again, as both gcc and clang become much more clever, but still gap is not very wide now.
Meanwhile half the world appears to run on cpython of all things.
Or you just not skip the introductory pages, that tell you what the language philosophy of C is, and why there is UB. Yes, UB can be a struggle, but the first four steps are entirely unnecessary. It means that you do not actually understand the core concepts of the very same language you are using, which is kinda stupid.
When that started happened people became alarmed (oMG UB iS TeH BAD!) and since some old UB machines still had industry support (of organisations that actually participated in ISO meetings instead of arguing online) there was never any movement on defining de-facto usage as de-jure and the alarmist position became the default.
Personally I think the industry would've benefited from a Boring C (as described by DJB) push by people that would've created a public parallell "de-jure" standard that would've had a chance to be adopted by compiler creators.
I guess I am too young, and also too much a purist, because I start from the impression of what the language is, not what the implementations happen to do.
> Personally I think the industry would've benefited from a Boring C (as described by DJB) push by people that would've created a public parallell "de-jure" standard that would've had a chance to be adopted by compiler creators.
-O0
http://archive.adaic.com/standards/83lrm/html/lrm-11-01.html
"STORAGE_ERROR This exception is raised in any of the following situations: (...) or during the execution of a subprogram call, if storage is not sufficient."
It's not safe though because throwing an exception, panicking, etc, is still a denial of service. It's just more deterministic than silently overwriting the heap instead. If the program is critical then you need to be able to statically prove the full size of the stack, which you can do with C and C++ with the right tools and restrictions.
The Ada language specification says the Ada programmer can expect any Ada compiler when used in fully compliant mode to properly raise STORAGE_ERROR when a stack overflow occurs.
Only the Ada compiler writer has to deal with this, not every single programmer on every single program and platform (the UB behaviour of some languages).
In the case of GCC/GNAT the compiler manual provides insight on how to be in compliant mode per target regarding stack overflow, what are the limitations if any. You have tools to monitor and analyze you Ada code in this respect too.
If a segfault leads to some other state you do not deem "safe", such as a single program gating access to a valuable asset with a default fail state of "allow", you just have a fundamental design flaw in your system. The safety problem is you or your AI agent, not the segfault.
> If the program is critical then you need to be able to statically prove the full size of the stack, which you can do with C and C++ with the right tools and restrictions.
Only for specific implementations; and neither C nor C++ standard guarantee that your program won't overflow the stack anyway. (Have a look, the standard says nothing about stack overflows, they still occur in practice with supposedly compliant compilers. So it seems that there are no rules about when they can happen.)
First, you can define what happens when stack space is exceeded. Second not all programs need an arbitrary amount of stack space, some only need a constant amount that can be calculated ahead of time. (And some languages don't use a stack at all in their implementations.)
Your language could also offer tools to probe how much stack space you have left, and make guarantees based on that. Or they could let you install some handlers for what to do when you run out of stack space.
How to think of this properly is that when you have UB, you are no longer under the auspices of a language standard. Things may work fine for a time, indefinitely even. But what happens instead is you unknowingly become subject to whimsies of your toolchain (swap/upgrade compilers), architecture, or runtime (libc version differences).
You end up building a foundation on quicksand. That's the danger of UB.
Tbh, already the first example (unaligned pointer access) is bogus and the C standard should be fixed (in the end the list of UB in the C standard is entirely "made up" and should be adapted to modern hardware, a lot of UB was important 30 years ago to allow optimizations on ancient CPUs, but a lot of those hardware restrictions are long gone).
In the end it's the CPU and not the compiler which decides whether an unaligned access is a problem or not. On most modern CPUs unaligned load/stores are no problem at all (not even a performance penalty unless you straddle a cache line). There's no point in restricting the entire C standard because of the behaviour of a few esoteric CPUs that are stuck in the past.
PS: we also need to stop with the "what if there is a CPU that..." discussions. The C standard should follow the current hardware, and not care about 40 year old CPUs or theoretical future CPU architectures. If esoteric CPUs need to be supported, compilers can do that with non-standard extensions.
Eh, if the compiler knows that two addresses are different at compile time, it also knows how big the difference is.
† Although on a real modern CPU the pointer "is" just an address, notionally it has three components, the address, an address space (modern machines typically only have one) and a "provenance".
For most C software on x86_64, UB is "fine" with very strong bunny ears. But it is preferable for one to, shall we say, write UB intentionally rather than accidentally and unknowingly. Having an awareness of all the minefields lends for more respect for the dangers of C code, it makes one question literally everything, and that would hopefully result in more correct code, more often.
On that note, on some RISC-V cores unaligned access can turn a single load into hundreds of instructions.
I think the problem is just that C is under specified for what we expect a language to provide in the modern age. It is still a great language, but the edges are sharp.
This is in contrast to the other category that exists, which is "implementation-defined".
Just don't do unaligned access, it's a dialect that doesn't exist currently, and should never exist.
That doesn't mean unaligned access would need to be UB. It could be implementation defined. Or could just be defined to result in an error on all machines.
Defining it to always error would add overhead even for proper aligned access on x86, as the generated code would need to explicitly check in many cases.
No, it's a lot better. Because implementations have to define it.
This is plain wrong. Undefined behaviour, means the C standard specifies no restriction on the behaviour of the program, which is what the implementation chooses to emit. An implementation can very well choose to emit any program it pleases, including programs that encrypt your harddisk, but also programs that stick to well defined rules.
Writing C (or any language) means adhering to the standard, because that's the definition of the language.
The C standard reminds me of Posix. You have a rough guideline if you ever wanted to port a program, but you actually have to learn the new compiler and its actual behavior before doing so.
There's multiple implementations of Python, but you are right that CPython is the big one. Part of that dynamic is that CPython runs on nearly everything well enough (well, as good as Python runs), so that we don't really need multiple implementations. Unlike the first C Compilers.
Of course, Lisp is a family of languages these days. Scheme and Common Lisp have many implementations, but Racket or Arc only have one.
Side effects matter, and they are always non-portable/implementation defined/dependent on the hardware.
What printf() actaully does is implementation defined - what does "printing mean", does a console even exist? Maybe a user expects it to show graphical ascii/utf8 glyphs on a LCD display? Well, not every computer has that, so now what?
Have you heard of Java or even Python or JavaScript?
> Side effects matter, and they are always non-portable/implementation defined/dependent on the hardware.
Granted. But how does the need for implementation defined excuse undefined behaviour?
> What printf() actaully does is implementation defined [...]
> Well, not every computer has that, so now what?
The standard can be written conditionally: 'if the computer has display, printf shall show something.'
> What printf() actaully does is implementation defined - what does "printing mean", does a console even exist? Maybe a user expects it to show graphical ascii/utf8 glyphs on a LCD display? Well, not every computer has that, so now what?
You can very well write a program, that doesn't make an assumption about any of those things. In fact you should, because the user is to be the arbiter of in what environment your program gets invoked and what it gets connected to. Writing a program that makes assumptions about the specific behaviour of stdout is going to be highly impractical and annoying and also violates the abstraction and interface that stdout is. This consideration isn't just valid for stdout, but also for any other interface your programs naturally interfaces with.
> Well, not every computer has that, so now what?
In the case stdout is not available or can't process your data it is going to return -1 and set errno and then you can deal with that.
However I do agree that just saying "the behaviour is undefined" is an unhelpful cop-out. They could easily say something like "non-atomic misaligned accesses either succeed or trap" or something like that.
> In the end it's the CPU and not the compiler which decides whether an unaligned access is a problem or not.
Not just the CPU - memory decides as well. MMIO devices often don't support misaligned accesses.
That means that the compiler must emit the read, even if the value is already known or never used, as it might trap. There is a reason for the UB!
The suggestion is that each individual access must either succeed or trap. Those are the only possible outcomes, but different accesses can result in different outcomes.
What people want is for a compiler that assumes that all pointers are aligned to use an aligned store or load instruction whenever the compiler wants to issue such an instruction. There is no need for UB here.
In other words, they want the compiler to stick with the decision it made and not randomly say "I can't do the thing I've been doing correctly for decades, because that's UB, my hands are tied, I must ruin the code, there's no other way."
(Note the normal way to handle that if the hardware doesn't actually support it is for the access to trap and then the OS or firmware emulates it.)
An honest discussion would be something more like 'dereferencing pointers can lead to UB on invalid pointers. Here are N examples of that. Maybe avoid using pointers. Maybe consider how other languages avoid pointers. Maybe these shouldn't be UB and instead some other class of error.' And then even more honest discussion would present the upsides of having pointers and the upsides of having these errors be UB.
Instead, the article (and your comment) take this valid operation and presents it as invalid. Imagine you're a new programmer, you are just starting to wrap your head around pointers and you stumble across this article. You see the first example and it looks exactly what you would expect a dereference to look like. But the article claims it's wrong, and now you're confused. So you dig into the article more closely and are exposed to all these terms like UB, alignment, type coercion etc and come away more confused and scared and disinclined to understand pointers. This is classic FUD. This is a technique to manipulate, not educate.
Pointers have pros and cons. UB has pros and cons. Let's try to educate people about them.
UB simply means the operation you are intending to perform has no defined semantic under the ISO C specification. That is all. Understand what this means but do not read further into it. It is easy to read further into this as you have and many do, and come to incorrect conclusions, and think this MUST result in incorrect behaviour, but this is not the claim. The claim is rather than once you write UB, you are no longer writing C the language with a defined spec, and that any manner of degrees of freedom (architecture, toolchain, etc) can now cause your code that was once behaving correctly to now behave incorrectly. That is the danger.
> That is a valid operation. Now if that pointer isn't valid (and being unaligned is one of many reasons it could be invalid) then calling the function with that invalid pointer will be UB.
This is incorrect. The moment you express this in source code, it is already UB wrt to the C abstract machine.
6.3.2.3. 755 If the resulting pointer is not correctly aligned for the pointed-to type, the behavior is undefined.
https://c0x.shape-of-code.com/6.3.2.3.html
The important distinction is to KNOW this is still UB; whether the operation yields the expected behaviour on your platform and architecture is completely a separate question.
The reason this is of utmost important is because the C compiler operates on the C abstract machine.
If you violate language invariants, the compiler can--keyword can--emit WRONG code and it will be CORRECT to do so because C unfortunately allows it to. When this happens it's silent and deadly and it's a pain to debug. The point of all this seeming language lawyering is not FUD, it is genuine frustration with these footguns of the language that we are trying to share with others. Understanding UB correctly really is what separates those that know C and those that "know" C.
Things will work and then they won't. This can be fine for most cases but not fine for others. If you use C in 2026 you need to understand this.
> come away more confused and scared
This is the correct take. One aught to be more confused and scared after learning about UB; the language simply leaves things under-specified and it is up to the developer to understand they are engaging in UB.
Once UB is acknowledged, one aught to impress upon themselves the software they build is dependent ever more on the whims of their particular compiler (clang/gcc), compiler flags (optimizations), architecture, and runtime environment.
"Accessing an object which is not correctly aligned" - this is UB
"As an example of this, take this code: ..." - this (code) is not UB.
Is this incorrect somehow?
You could interpret the second sentence as 'under the assumption of an unaligned pointer, let's look at what this seemingly innocuous (and correct) code does.'
But that's not what they did. They presented that code as if it's incorrect (following the whole premise of the article 'Everything in c is UB'). That's what the whole article does, they take a topic with real concerns, then present 'normal' code, and then imply the code is the issue (and therefore the language), not the premise.
You know what would be better, show an example that clearly shows the complete path for the premise to the issue. Ie show some code that generates an unaligned pointer and then uses it. Why did the author not do that? Surprise, because it's actually pretty hard to write code that's 'guaranteed' unaligned behavior.
Is this unaligned access? You don't know because you don't know the size of int. (Not to mention it looks ridiculous. By only showing 'reasonable' code as the example, the article suppresses the common 'uh just don't do that' criticism.)And in fact the ambiguity of alignments and sizes is the whole point - they are given the privilege/footgun of being undefined in c so that compilers are easier to write. It's very debatable if this was/is a good idea, but that's where the debate should be, not illusorily ascribed to derefing pointers.
If I'm misunderstanding, please let me know. Specifically, if you're claiming (1) either the literal code in the first box of the article is UB, or (2) please write some literal code that is UB in the vein of the first claim of the article. I think that would help me bridge the gap that we seem to be having.
You are beginning to understand. Yes, surprisingly, it is (1) that is being claimed.
The mere expression is alone UB. Yes, you read that right. In source code, it's already UB. Why? Because the ISO spec defined UB that way. But you see, what this means in practice ie whether "it works" is an entirely separate question and would be specific to toolchain, hardware, runtime, the alignment of the pointer in question, blah blah.
There is nuance here, and that's why this topic is debated to death, because it's hard to explain and it is genuinely complex.
When people say something is UB, they mean to say that the behaviour is undefined--wrt to ISO C.
The behaviour that actually matters IS defined wrt toolchain, hardware, runtime, alignment of pointer in question.
But that's exactly it--the latter is not what we mean when we say something is UB, when we say something is UB we are talking about the ISO C spec. The important follow up question then, when knowingly invoking UB, is to ensure your environment is "correct", because you have now crossed into realms entirely out of the auspices of the ISO C spec. Ergo, you are now in UB land; what you thought was the foundation of your codebase, the ISO C spec, has now turned into quicksand.
It is this implied undocumented dependence on factors external to the source code that is a huge source of bugs and surprisal.
So take this example from the article. Yes, it is UB by construction.
(edit: i copied the wrong fragment initially -- if you were talking about the int foo(const int* p) fragment, yes that block is not by construction UB)
Why?> Because the compiler is not obligated to generate assembly instructions that work on unaligned pointers. Because it’s UB.
Does it actually work though? It might and it might not: there is simply no guarantee from the language. But that's all it says. It may very well work on your arch and platform and toolchain, indefinitely. But again circling back, for code written like this to be so brittle, that is why UB is to be avoided.
And to your point:
> that's where the debate should be, not illusorily ascribed to derefing pointers.
But that is where the debate is. People just do not understand what UB actually means. The article is correct: everything in C is UB. The takeaway is not that, therefore all C code is irredeemably broken (well, to some people it does mean that, anywho..). The takeaway is that most C code IS in fact more delicate than one may originally believe, because of the fact ISO C is under-specified, to allow for specialization dependent on toolchain/arch/hardware/what have you etc.
So it is incumbent on the developer when writing C to correctly acknowledge when they are invoking UB, and to do so intentionally with the awareness that things may just randomly break one day.
But even for the parse() example, the issue is the aliasing rules (and not the alignment - though that could still be an issue depending on input!) Aliasing isn't even mentioned in the article. Instead the example presents this thing 'people do all the time' and identifies it 'UB' without even identifying the actual issue.
On its own I could forgive the former, making a precise example is tricky (particularly with alignment issues). But this is repeated: milliseconds() is characterized 'UB' because it's inputs could be outside the representable range. Again the function is not UB, the inputs can potentially trigger UB.
Then the function pointer example obfuscates the assignment (fine) with the call (ub). Despite the red herring statement 'NULL compares unequal to any object or function' as the example assigns a function _pointer_ which can be NULL. The honest example of the statement is:
which won't even compile because it violates the thing that was just said (among other reasons). The UB is the call below and has nothing to do with equality with NULL.The repeated pattern of say one thing, show an example that's 'reasonable' and implies that it's related to what was just said, and from that invalid relation conclude that everything is UB in C feels dishonest (particularly when it's so easy to talk about UB in C honestly because there is so much to be legitimately concerned about!)
I appreciate your and your advocacy about UB in C, and I think I agree with most of your points about it and they worth discussing. That's why the article itself is frustrating to me, we don't need to be tricksy when talking about UB, it's already tricky enough!
One thing though, for parse() not only is it violating strict aliasing, it is also indeed violating alignment requirements.
To quote the standard again:
> 6.3.2.3. 755 If the resulting pointer is not correctly aligned for the pointed-to type, the behavior is undefined.
You can even kind of retrofit this to C. The classic example is "sel4". You just need a set of proofs that the code doesn't trigger UB. This ends up being much larger and more complicated than the C itself.
* terms and limits may apply.
https://lists.isocpp.org/std-proposals/2020/05/1322.php
https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2024/p28...
Low level platform-specific code that needs to hot spin until an interrupt happens can use assembly for that part which it will need to do for the interrupt handler anyway.
Can you spot the infinite loop in this function?
I'll help. A call to `stpcpy` that ignores the return value can be swapped with a call to the (more likely to be optimized) `strcpy`. Since that's infinite recursion, and there is no forward progress, it's undefined behavior and anything goes.This isn't just theory, it actually broke things in practice for me.
So `str` and `mem` are reserved. But then so are `to` and `is` (by <ctype.h>). Just forget about having a function named `is_valid_user`.
And so are `mtx_`, `cnd_`, `thrd_`, `atomic_`, `memory_`...
Which is why... everything in C is UB.
In worse scenarios, your programme will silently continue with garbage, or format your hard disk or give attackers the key to the kingdom.
Another commenter suggested using LLMs, but I disagree. Having clangd emit warning squiggles for unchecked operations (like signed addition) would be a good start.
Dead code elimination is essential for performance, especially when using templates (this is basically what enables the fabled "zero cost abstraction" because complex template code may generate a lot of 'inactive' code which needs to be removed by the optimizer).
The actual issue is that the compiler is free to eliminate code paths after UB, but that's also not trivial to fix (and some optimizations are actually enabled by manually injecting UB (like `__builtin_unreachable()` which can make a measurable difference in the right places).
Not, that the compiler can also emit code paths before UB, as UB is a property of the whole program, not just of a single statement.
before.
It's reasonable that such people would also be interested in design aspects of languages, and UB in C is in that field. Though I would argue that a lot of it was originally accommodating old CPU architectures without compromising performance too badly, and about as much a "design choice" as wheels being round...
There were a few high-profile "scandals" around GCC 3.2 (IIRC) because the compiler finally started much more aggressively using UB in optimizations, which was a reason that lots of people stayed on GCC 2.95 for a very long time. GCC 3.2 came out in 2002.
In the C ecosystem, the compiler gets to define what UB means. They broke compatibility with their previous UB semantics, then blamed the language spec.
It really doesn't though. The current revision of the ISO/IEC 9899 standards document gets to define it, nobody else.
The compiler / os / hw platform are free to define the behavior of those things. Leaving them undefined at the language spec is the mechanism that allows them to be defined by the underlying system. C has worked this way since its initial release.
Every company keep harping on about safety and being exposed (being in the news): so the narrative against 'unsafe' is up the wazoo.
The new world is basically a bunch of city dwellers who haven't seen raw nature and you show them a lawn mower, they freak out. Blades that spin?!?!?! Madness!!
Can't talk about C without CVE.
If you think C is the problem, you'll come to the eventual conclusion that humans are the problems, and greed. Don't hate the player, hate the game etc.
C was invented so you don't have to write assembly. It wasn't invented to expose devices to billions of other devices.
I have lots of my code running day-in, day-out on literally hundreds of millions of machines. The approach to "getting it working" is exactly OP's.
I'll admit to being pretty defensive and anal in checking values and return-codes (more so than most, I suspect), and I'm a firm believer in KISS principles in software engineering ("solving hard problems with complicated code is easy, solving them with simple, understandable algorithms is the hard bit") but generally there's no real difference in approach to the code I write to work on my workstation, and the code I write to work in the field.
It did make you write robust and defensive code, though...
Understanding three important concepts properly in C allows one to easily identify what can/cannot result in UB viz. 1) Expressions 2) Statements 3) Sequence Points and "Single Update Rule". It is not that hard at all.
I wrote about it here with links to further reading provided - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48144734
Compilers might have bugs where the spec is supposed to work but it doesn't, and many extensions without standard equivalents, or implementation-specific behaviour where undefined things in the standard do get assigned a meaningful outcome.
The real answer is that proponents of languages like C seem to completely disregard the dangers/difficulty of hitting/difficulty of fixing UB. Proponents of languages like Rust overstate it instead. Pointless wars/drama is fun to read and gets clicks.
2. You don't really appreciate the issue. Signed integer overflow is undefined. If you check for that overflow after the fact the compiler can, and demonstrably has pretended that the overflow can't happen and optimised away your overflow check.
You may not even come across that failure mode to know to 'fix' it. And good luck finding the issue unless you know about UB and what the compiler can and will do in such situations.
Although I haven’t noticed a spike the last 6 months, just a slowly increasing realization that C isn’t fit for humans and should go the way of asbest: Don’t use it for anything new, and remove it where it already exists, unless doing so would be too expensive or disruptive.
Personally I like C because you should have a good idea of what it's going to do. Other languages feel like a black box, and I start having to fight them far too often. But I say that as a hacker of low level stuff, not as someone who's paid and working on higher level stuff, so that is probably a niche view.
tl;dr: C defined language semantics, and leaves some behavior undefined. Each system that C is ported to has the ability to define the behavior however it wants.
This blows the mind of PL folks every decade or so.
It’s cool that we have portable methods and formal language semantics for stuff like memory fences and atomics now, but that sort of thing worked fine in C back in 1970 (or else unix would not have worked). You just needed to read the target machine’s manual when porting stuff.
The modern version is arguably better, but also arguably worse. Does anyone else remember when the JVM got this stuff wrong, making safe multithreaded code impossible, and then later had to break compatibility with the language spec?
You could claim that we can’t trust hardware folks to get instruction semantics right (this is demonstrably true), but duplicating and slightly modifying the specs in your language spec doesn’t actually fix the underlying hardware bugs.
Yeah, getting old… I’ll go find a cloud to yell at.
After switching to Rust five years ago I agree with all the Rust hipsters as far as disliking those languages go.
I just don't talk about it a lot. If every Rust person I know that was a C/C++ developer before was as outspoken about what they think of the latter, you'd see that these people are a majority.
We're just old hands who like to use stuff that works. And most of us don't get attached to code or languages.
It's also difficult to admint to yourself that you were never in command of a language as far as UB/other footguns go, as much as you thought. Or ever, for your enire career. For me that self-realization about C/C++ (enabled by Rust) was a turning point.
Lately you can read about the dichotomy re. AI use.
I.e. developers who define them themselves through what they build/ideas are embracing LLMs; for what they can do.
I.e.: I am what I build.
Whereas developers for whom software engineering is a craft that defines them hate them openly.
I.e.: I am how I build.
Now this seems to suggest to me that maybe Rust developers who openly hate C/C++ squarely belong to the latter group whereas the silent ones belong to the former. It's builders vs programmers. Just different world views.
Also you can not dislike something and still not speak about it. Because you decided to not care.
Just like TypeScript can't get rid of JavaScript WATs.
I trust your historical C usage was more productive than that..
As I stated:
> The following is not an attempt at enumerating all the UB in the world. It’s merely making the case that UB is everywhere, and if nobody can do it right, how is it even fair to blame the programmer? My point is that ALL nontrivial C/C++ code has UB.
It's about that point, not about how to avoid it. Because you can't.
So I see your counter points are all "so just don't do that, then".
And the point of my post is that this particular "just don't do that, then" has never been achieved by humans.
If if there's no example of a program without these bugs in a language, then I do think it's fair to blame the language. A knife with 16 blades and no handle.
> Expecting C to handle "address zero" in physical memory in ways that conflict with NULL in source code denotes a complete lack of understanding of what a program is.
Like the post says, it's rare that programmers actually want a pointer to memory address zero. But in my experience most programmers who even encounter that have this "complete lack of understanding", as you put it.
For example, you seem to underestimate how wrong placing negative values in a signed char is: ordinary character encodings do not use negative codes, so either those negative values are not characters and they have no business being treated as such, or something strange and experimental is going on.
We have 54 years of empirical data that literally nobody can follow this approach and reach UB-freeness. To stick to the plan is more like the in-debt gambler who just needs to work their system for a little longer, and they'll become rich.
By this logic we don't need any traffic rules other than "just don't crash or hit anyone". And we can aspire to an absolute dictatorship, all we need to do is "just" choose the benevolent one.
Of course we should always try to not make mistakes. But given more than half a century of empirical data that nobody has been able to avoid UB, ever, it takes quite some hubris to say "but it might work for us".
> you seem to underestimate how wrong placing negative values in a signed char is
Shrug. You don't make that mistake. There are thousands of mistakes like it, especially in C or C++.
Of course "don't do that". That is not the same as "So just don't do that!". The former is good advice. The latter is one of a million rules, and to expect even experts (see OpenBSD) to never make a mistake is unrealistic to say the least.
You may even have spotted the UB in https://pooladkhay.com/posts/first-kernel-patch/. But you would not spot all of them. Nobody in history has.
First of all, traffic rules are good, and similar to good C programming rules: check number value ranges when there is a chance of casting or overflow, check Inf and NaN floating point values, declare alignment strategically (e.g. in all memory allocations) to avoid misaligned pointers and variables, and so on. Such rules have alternatives and exceptions and must not be part of the language.
Second, nobody needs perfection and "UB-freeness": it is reasonable to assume that many cases of UB won't be a problem, either because a library will be used correctly and they won't happen, or because the C implementation is neither weird nor hostile and they will be as benign as defined or implementation defined behaviour, or simply because we avoid doing something known to be inexact or hard to write correctly.
Practical programming requires knowing the relevant rules for what one is doing and learning new ones by making, diagnosing and overcoming mistakes; not omniscience, and definitely not the unfounded feeling of omniscience and unlimited resources that LLMs can give.
EDIT: I insist on the signed char example because it would be terribly wrong (processing who-knows-what as if it were a sequence of characters) even without undefined behaviour, even in different languages.
Sure. You only care about the ones that manifest security issues, stability issues, or other corruption. But of course those change over time as compilers change.
So while far from every instance of UB will manifest in a problem, every single one has the potential to, by a low percentage. They're all tiny liabilities that add up.
But which ones will? Reminds me of https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/ooypcn7qFzsMcy53R/infinite-c...
> because the C implementation is neither weird nor hostile
Some people definitely were screaming at GCC for being hostile when it removed the NULL check in the kernel:
> the unfounded feeling of omniscience and unlimited resources that LLMs can give.I definitely don't have that. I'm not saying LLMs find all bugs (now or in the future), nor that they are an unlimited resource.
I'm just saying that for finding UB and subtle bugs, they find orders of magnitude more, especially in C and C++.
I am not saying they find a strict superset of bugs, compared to a human. But take me running this against cosmopolitan libc: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48206377. It took me basically zero human time to spin it off, it took a couple of minutes (5.5 in xhigh effort) to run, and found 5-10 cases of UB, one of which I think is a user visible parsing error of SSH keys. Another is a set of double-free, which is definitely a thing that gets exploited over and over.
Would I have found these, in an unknown-to-me codebase no less, given manual source code reading all day? Of course not. Would I have found it with the likes of UBSAN? jart claims to have used it (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48205545), and apparently didn't.
LLMs are just one of the tools to use. A tool that does better than any tool or human has done in the last half century.
> I insist on the signed char example because it would be terribly wrong
The char situation is terrible in C. It's perfectly safe to hold bytes in a char, signed char, and unsigned char, and convert between them. But then integer promotion rules combine with the historical choice of having isdigit take an int to break things.
If isdigit took a char, of any signedness, then there wouldn't be a problem. But that EOF ruins it.
> processing who-knows-what as if it were a sequence of characters
A "char" hasn't been "a character" in any meaningful sense in a long long time. Or rather, "a character" is not a code point or grapheme cluster. For byte processing, since they cast perfectly fine, it's fine. Or do you have some interesting example?
The other obvious issue with the overall perspective is that C and C++ are being thrown together directly as if somehow they’re nearly the same language, but they are really very far apart nowadays.
Most C++ today will be immediately obvious and not accidentally mixed up with C.
That word is carrying a lot of weight here. Compilers are unbelievably complex these days, and it's impossible for any one human to fully understand the entire compilation process, including the effects of any arbitrary combination of compiler flags.
Any assumptions you have about what the compiler does in the face of UB will collapse on the next patch release of that compiler, or the moment somebody changes the compiler flags, or the moment somebody tries to compile the code for a slightly different OS, not to mention architecture.
There is no other way to understand what C compilers do than reading the standard.
Linux works on a wide variety of platforms. It also relies on those platforms behaving predictably with respect to what the standard leaves undefined.
This description of ISO UB as a totally insane wonderland of random, malevolent semantics just doesn't describe reality.
(But also, what you describe would be incorrect, since two <MAX values can add to a value that is >MAX, and overflow)
I was maybe unclear. I meant, if you know a sum can introduce overflow (because you have a check right after), why not check the inputs before doing the sum, instead of checking the sum?
Signed vs unsigned chars, and the accompanying extension rules, have already bitten me switching between x86/ARM compilers. Confused the hell out of me when I was just starting out with C.
If you're going to interpret C as in "C on amd64, running on Linux 7.0 on an Arrow Lake Intel processor" then yes, you can get away with a lot of UB. That mitigates the problem but doesn't make it go away.
It’s not. All that matters is what C compilers actually do and what real C programs expect.
This is a good thing. It creates a culture where the two sides meet each other where they’re at
But why I’m saying has always been true. What has changed is that the effective portability of C and C++ code has increased due to the reduction in number of compilers and arches
Doesn't matter though because you aren't writing standards conforming C. You're writing whatever dialect your compilers support, and that's probably (module bugs) much better behaved than the spec suggests.
Or you're writing C++ and way more exposed to the adversarial-and-benevolent compiler experience.
The type aliasing rules are the only ones that routinely cause me much annoyance in C and there's always a workaround, whether if it's the launder intrinsic used to implement C++, the may_alias attribute or in extremis dropping into asm. So they're a nuisance not a blocker.
The article suggests using LLMs to identify and fix UB. However as per the above, I think the issue is that we need more expert humans.
LLM generated code will eventually contain UB.
EDIT: added "eventually"
https://gist.github.com/Earnestly/7c903f481ff9d29a3dd1
But don't misunderstand the goal of that: C and C++ will never get rid of UB. The result of dereferencing an invalid pointer is UB, will always remain UB, and really cannot be anything other than UB.
And it also signals that you actually do want to improve, just a little bit of boy scout rule goes a long way.
(only slightly tongue-in-cheek, I do believe that removing silly things is worthwhile).
> The article suggests using LLMs to identify and fix UB. However as per the above, I think the issue is that we need more expert humans.
Yup. But the point of the article is that even expert humans cannot do this alone. And as I wrote, LLM+junior won't suffice either. We need LLM+senior experts.
And it's a problem that we have way more existing UB than expert capacity.
Now, will LLMs and experts both miss UB in some cases? Of course. There's no 100% solution. But LLMs, I claim, will find orders of magnitude more, with low false positive, than any expert. Even if these expert humans (like in the OpenBSD case for the two bugs I found, one of which was UB) are given more than three decades to do it.
I didn't even use the best model, complex code target, or time. I just wanted to choose a target that has a high chance of having very good experts already having audited it.
Yes.
Even in languages other than C (i.e. you will get behaviour that nothing in the input specified).
When LLMs generate code, all languages have UB.
UB means literally no restrictions. So if you standard says 'you have to crash with an error message' that's already no longer UB.
Sure. For crashes. But when you instruct an LLM to do something, the output is probablistic, so you may get behviour that is unexpected and/or unwanted.
Like storing security tokens in code. Or nuking the production database.
And there's no requirement for C compilers' UB to be deterministic either.
"Explicit casts only" worked fine in Modula-2, which doesn't have as many scalar types.
you might try to argue that uint8_t is not necessarily char, and while it is true that implementations of C can exist where CHAR_BIT > 8, but those do not have uint8_t defined (as per spec), so if you have uint8_t, then it is "unsigned char", which makes this cast perfectly safe and defined as far as i can tell. Of course CHAR_BIT is required to be >= 8, so if it is not >8, it is exactly 8. (In any case, whether uint8_t is literally a typedef of unsigned char is implementation-defined and not actually relevant to whether the cast itself is valid -- it is)
Of course, this exchange just demonstrates the larger point, that even a world-class expert in low level programming can easily make mistakes in spotting potential UB.
A "world-class expert in low level programming" knows that unaligned memory accesses are no problem anymore on most modern CPUs, and that this particular UB in the C standard is bogus and needs to fixed ;)
Pointer casts changing pointer bit sequences is common on weird platforms (eg: some TI DSPs, PIC, and aarch64+PAC). And it is valid as per spec. Pointer assignment is not required to be the same as memcpy-ing the pointer unto a pointer to another type.
You misunderstood the spec. No promises are made that that cast copies the pointer bit for bit (and thus creates an invalid pointer). Therefore, your objection to invalid pointers is null and void. :)
6.3.2.3 paragraph 7: A pointer to an object type may be converted to a pointer to a different object type. If the resulting pointer is not correctly aligned[footnote 68]) for the referenced type, the behavior is undefined. Otherwise, when converted back again, the result shall compare equal to the original pointer. When a pointer to an object is converted to a pointer to a character type, the result points to the lowest addressed byte of the object. Successive increments of the result, up to the size of the object, yield pointers to the remaining bytes of the object.
This is a subsection of section 6.3 which describes conversions, which include both implicit and conversions from a cast operation. This language is not saying anything about bit representations or derefencing.
I happen to be wearing my undefined behavior shirt at the moment, which lends me an extra layer of authority. I'm at RustWeek in Utrecht, and it's one of my favorite shirts to wear at Rust conferences. But let's say for the sake of argument that you are right and I am indeed misunderstanding the spec. Then the logical conclusion is that it's very difficult for even experienced programmers to agree on basic interpretations of what is and what isn't UB in C.
In practice performing a cast doesn't really do much until you dereference, but without a carve out in the spec, it does really mean "the behavior is undefined".
Doesn't this part exclude the possibility of rounding down?
A "valid" pointer to the wrong object?
> A pointer to an object type may be converted to a pointer to a different object type. If the resulting pointer is not correctly aligned71) for the referenced type, the behavior is undefined.
C23 6.3.2.3p7.
Great way to demonstrate the point of the article.
On recent Intel and 64-bit ARM processors, data alignment does not make processing a lot faster. It is a micro-optimization. Data alignment for speed is a myth. // https://lemire.me/blog/2012/05/31/data-alignment-for-speed-m...
(while in the olden days, a program may crash on unaligned access, esp on RISC)
I don’t see what spec part would prohibit that cast from validly compiling to
Spec only guaranteed round-trip through char* of properly aligned for type pointers. This doesn’t break that.edit: I'm not sure it's even undefined in C.
The part about hardware is wrong BTW. In all the cases about null pointers and out-of-bounds access and integer overflow and whatnot, the hardware semantics are clearly defined, and the assembler code does exactly what is written. The way modern compilers act on your code makes C less safe than assembler in that sense.
> The part about hardware is wrong BTW
Could you be more specific? I think by "wrong" you may mean "not actually relevant to UB", and you're right about that. If that's what you mean then that part is not for you. It's for the "but it's demonstrably fine" crowd.
> the hardware semantics are clearly defined
Yup. The article means to dive from the C abstract machine to illustrate how your defined intentions (in your head), written as UB C, get translated into defined hardware behavior that you did not intend.
I'm not saying the CPU has UB, and I wonder what part made you think I did.
That's what I mean game of telephone. The UB parts get interpreted as real instructions by the hardware, and it will definitely do those things. But what are those things? It's not the things you intended, and any "common sense" reading of the C code is irrelevant, because the C representation of your intentions were UB.
> When programming in C, to avoid unexpected pitfalls, one must be acutely aware of a whole slew of implicit behaviors (some of which are implementation-defined or even undefined).
I mean, you have to go out of your way and use a cast to get the UB in the first example.
For the `isxdigit` implementation, using a parameter to index into an array without a length check is pretty suspect already. I don't think any of my code actually indexes an array without checking the length in some way.
For the float -> int conversion, converting a float to an int without picking a conversion does not make sense in the first place - math.h has rounding and ceiling functions.
> For all you know the compiler has no internal way to even express your intention here.
I'm human, not a compiler, and even I cannot tell what the intention is behind trying to call NULL as a function. What exactly is expected to happen?
> Because the argument needs to be a pointer, and the NULL macro may be misinterpreted as an integer zero.
I don't think this is true for C. The NULL macro is defined to be a pointer in the C standard, AFAIK. Just because comparisons with zero are allowed, does not imply that the standard implicitly promotes NULL to `int`.
I think only the final one is of note (the 24-bit shift assigned to a uint64_t).
Probably confusion with C++ where NULL is 0 which is a special case that can be implicitly cast to both integers and pointers, unlike non-zero constants. C doesn't need this because it doesn't require explicit casts from void pointers to others.
Part of the reason for all the UB in OpenBSD is that UBSan doesn't run on that platform. When I ported OpenBSD's httpd to Linux, I found that UBSan tripped before the server even came up because the config flag parsing shifts into the MSB of a signed integer.
I tried to contribute back a patch (just make the flag bitfield unsigned), but it was ignored. I think if UBSan ran natively on OpenBSD, then there would be a lot more of these patches, and the maintainers would have to take an official stance on whether they think these bugs matter.
As for UB, the compiler has the final say. Nobody should write nontrivial c without understanding their compiler, the same as nobody should write c without understanding their text editor.
Code in other languages breaks between versions, in c there are projects with code from every version at once!
Looking at it another way, work put into a c compiler enables you to write nontrivial code.
Although many newer languages are safer (with the exclusion of Rust, primarily by being slower) the same kinds of issues that are there in C are there in these languages, their effects are just harder to see.
People complain about C as though they know how to fix it.
Brainfuck is "simple" by any other definition as well, but that's not a useful quality.
That doesn't mean the C is a safer language than Swift, or a less-capable language than Swift. But in terms of "easy to understand along the happy-path", it's a lot easier to get going in C.
Swift, for example, bakes a whole load of CS-degree-level ideas and concepts into the basic language with its optionals, unwrapping, type-inference, async/await, existential types, ... ... ... . C doesn't do any of that. There are (many!) more footguns in C, but the language is less complex as a result.
Brainfuck is not at all simple, from that point of view. This is a valid Brainfuck program:
>+++++++++[<++++++++>-]<.>+++++++[<++++>-]<+.+++++++..+++.[-]>++++++++[<++++>-]<. >+++++++++++[<+++++>-]<.>++++++++[<+++>-]<.+++.------.--------.[-]>++++++++[<++++ >-]<+.[-]++++++++++.
This is the equivalent C program
#include <stdio.h> int main() { printf("Hello world!\n"); }
One of these is far simpler than the other.
[edit: changed to make the examples do the same thing]
The brainfuck example is "simpler": Only 8 kinds of tokens! Not really useful, though.
The cognitive load of _actually delivering software_ written in C is immensely greater than doing so with Swift, or Rust, or Python, or Java, even Zig, despite all of those leveraging much heavier machinery in order to deliver a friendlier abstract model for you to program against.
The tragedy of C is that, in addition only delivering very baseline abstraction tools, it also adds its own set of seemingly arbitrary rules and requirements that come from nowhere but the C standard. Fictitious limitations to suit a bygone era. The abstract model of C is fine in some places, but definitely not fine in other places, and my hypothesis is that most UB in practice comes from a mismatch between programmer intuitions and C's idiosyncracies.
> The cognitive load of _actually delivering software_ written in C is immensely greater than doing so with Swift, or Rust, or Python, or Java, even Zig, despite all of those leveraging much heavier machinery in order to deliver a friendlier abstract model for you to program against
Sorry, I couldn't disagree more.
I find the simplicity of C to be elegant. You know the rules; it's like the entire C language is the 1-page summary of the encyclopaedia of C++ or Swift or Java, or (insert more-modern language here). The key to working well in C is in defining modular code with well-understood interfaces. I've got 40 years of programming in C so far, and the nightmare stories ran out after the first few years. Programming discipline is a thing.
Similarly, ObjC is a far superior, much simpler, object-oriented language than C++, there's about 15 different things over C, and you know the language. Template metaprogramming. Phooey! You'll still have to learn object-orientated programming semantics, but it's a "simple" language.
BTW: If you think the brainfuck language example is in any way easier to understand than the C one, I think you might need medication. /j
You need to find something more interesting to do ;)
So I have a few things to keep me busy right now.
1: http://0x0000ff.co.uk/img/garage/garage-layout.png
2: http://0x0000ff.co.uk/img/observatory/roll-off-roof-observat...
3: http://0x0000ff.co.uk/img/dish/dish.jpg
4: http://atari-xt.com/
Brainfuck is absolutely not simple in this case
It's slower than Fortran and, depending on the platform, cobol. It's a bigger minefield than any language that came after it barring C++.
The only real advantage I can ascribe to C is that it's actually still being used after all these years, and it mostly works similarly on most hardware, like a Java for people who enjoy the casino.
Fixing C without breaking existing C code is pretty much impossible. You can start by defining warnings for UB, but then you will break any of the more trivial examples in the article. You can also start by simply killing off weird platforms (force a specific amount of bits for instance, screw the weird 16 bit char chips). Making casts explicit would probably fix a lot of problems too, though you'd need better syntax for that.
There is no fixing C without changing what C really is.
I'm not an expert in either language but my anecdotal experience disagrees with this - writing Zig has been far simpler and less error-prone than writing C.
> If the function is defined with a type that is not compatible with the type (of the expression) pointed to by the expression that denotes the called function, the behavior is undefined.
Compatible types requires integrating texts from several different paragraphs, but the general notion is "identical type, in a frontend sense", not "same ABI." This means that "const void " and "void " are not compatible types, much less "void " and "struct foo ".
I can see the value in saying that struct x* isn't compatible with struct y*, because they could have different alignment or packing rules. But struct x* and void*, which is already special-cased to allow assignment without a cast? Why aren't these considered compatible in function pointer parameter definitions?
Is there any work involved in casting void* to struct* (on any architecture) that a plain function pointer would miss out?
- casting an object pointer to or from void*
- casting an object pointer to or from char*
You're not doing either of those things. A function pointer is not an object pointer (the standard does not guarantee that the two kinds of pointer even have the same size/representation, and in fact on some esoteric hardware they don't), and even if it were, you aren't casting to or from void* or char*. So it's UB for two separate reasons.
You can cast between pointer types freely so long as they can be representable in one another (some casts are undefined because the address would be unaligned in the target pointer type, and there's actually no guarantee that pointers to objects and pointers to functions have the same representation).
Strict aliasing rules don't kick in at pointer type casting, but rather kick in at lvalue access--when you dereference a pointer, in other words--and you've also given the list of strict aliasing rules completely incorrectly.
I guess enumerating all the possibility is just .. don't look right? make the standard too long and complex?
(1) you can cast between any pointer types (no UB - assuming they're aligned), but accessing memory through a wrongly-typed pointer is UB
(2) the only exception is char*, which allows you a "byte view of memory"
(3) calling a function through a pointer requires the parameter pointer types to be compatible, and none of these are: int*, struct foo *, void*, char*
- Making a Turing machine have deterministic and predictable results is hard.
- Modern hardware is complex and getting all hardware to behave the same way requires a strong mathematical abstraction.
C was never intended to be a fully defined mathematical abstraction. It was a language which was easy to write a compiler for. That's its original strength. Trying to make it something it isn't is the problem. Either choose a language which does have such abstractions or understand the drawbacks of the tool you are using.
Right tool for the right job.
First let me state the case for C. It’s meant to be used as a systems language that’s as close to assembly as possible while remaining portable (compared to assembly). As such it’s the first high-level language developed for any new processor.
Given the above predicate: Isn’t everything described in the article as it should be?
Add too much to the language and it becomes less possible to implement on new architectures, right? Because the undefined behavior lets implementors stand up new compilers fairly quickly.
For less undefined behavior isn’t it better to use languages that have that in their DNA? D, Zig, Go, Java, etc?
I think the real trick question is "as it should be for whom?".
Reading the comments I think people underestimate the complex interaction between:
- engineers that design hardware (they don't care much about the compiler, except when it has to fix their mistakes)
- engineers that do the compiler (they have to struggle with all quirks of the new architecture and all of the complaints of the users)
- users of the new system (hardware + compiler) that just want to take their 100k lines of code (libraries) and just use it on the new system with better performance (as that's what the hardware people promissed!)
- users working on one architecture all their lives
For the compiler people, yes, probably most what is described is as it should be. For the users (that care about performance and not making porting efforts), probably no.
Now, even when I was doing compiler work we had a hard time explaining our users why we couldn't do some things they wanted (while also improving performance and not changing code that was writting), so explaining that on the internet seems to me a lost battle.
I am sure there are things that can be improved, and standards evolve. But the problem is very complex given the sheer amount of code written and the strange architectures out there.
Is "nontrivial" defined
How would one identify "nontrivial" C code
Is there an objective measure (defined)
Or is it a matter of personal opinion that could vary from person to person (undefined)
``` int isxdigit(int c) { if (c == EOF) { return false; } return some_array[c]; } ```
If you write code like this, then everything in programming is UB.
By 'bounded', this obviously ignores the security consequences of e.g. buffer overflows, but just because UB can be exploited doesn't mean it's appropriate for e.g. the compiler to exploit it too, that clearly violates the intent of this paragraph.
Aren't "unpredictable results" and "no requirements" contrary to the idea that the behavior would be "somewhat bounded"?
I don't think you could sincerely argue that this definition intends to allow the compiler to totally rewrite your code because of one guaranteed UB detected on line 5, just that it would be good to print a diagnostic if it can be detected, and if not to do what's "characteristic of the environment". Does that make sense?
Bounding UB would be a nice idea, or at least prohibiting time-traveling UB (and there is an effort in that direction). But properly specifing it is actually hard.
Only things you need to worry about then are things with actual observable side-effects - volatile, printf and similar - and C23 does note that all observable behavior should happen even if UB follows, and compilers can't generally optimize function calls anyway (e.g. on systems on which you can define custom printf callbacks, you could put an exit(0) in such, and thus make it incorrect to optimize out a printf ever).
Reading adversarially is what people do who are looking for ways that something can be abused, from an offensive or defensive position.
Personally I am tired of the entire topic.
I noticed that. Those are 100% consistent & implied by the parts of the standard I quoted that you are ignoring, though.
What you're doing is:
- Arguing is that those phrases describe the totality of the implications, rather than mere examples, without providing anything to base this method of argumentation on.
- Completely ignoring the other phrases I quoted, which (taken at face value) contradict your reading.
- Claiming that anyone who disagrees is being insincere(?) and reading the standard uncharitably.
- Not even attempting to support this line of reasoning through other arguments.
So you're not only asking people to read contradictions into the standard, but also insinuating that people who don't are not arguing in good faith. That... honestly isn't a winning strategy.
Note that I'm not even saying your conclusion regarding their intent is necessarily wrong. I'm just saying your argument is bad. And that there is a difference between what the rules are and what some people believe their authors intended them to be.
If I wanted to argue your position, I would look for other parts of the standard where they do what you're claiming. That is, where the literal meaning of the wording would be crazy, and which would clearly contract what everyone believes the authors of the standard intended it to mean. Then you would at least have some basis for extrapolating that line of reasoning to this paragraph. At that point you might at least get an acknowledgment from the other side that the standard is unclear and/or has a defect, even if they didn't agree with your take on what requirements it imposes as-written.
> I don't think you could sincerely argue that this definition intends to allow the compiler to totally rewrite your code because of one guaranteed UB detected on line 5,
I'm not sure if you're exaggerating ("totally"?), being sloppy, or misunderstanding, or if you actually mean this literally, but I already don't believe it does that, and I have never seen any compiler interpret it that way either. Sorry, but you're going to have to be more precise and pedantic here so you actually have something realistic to argue against. Right now it looks like you have an impression of UB that doesn't match reality.
You are taking them out of context (literally this is what you describe here, taking at face value a smaller quote).
I think your approach to interpreting the spec is not correct. This isn't code, it's a spec: it needs to be read in full context (even though a good spec would certainly be written in a less context-sensitive way, this is not a perfect spec -- have you ever seen one?). You're not a computer or a machine, you need to read it more like a human, even though we're all trained on the concrete mechanics of computer programming. Yes, even though it's describing a programming language, believe it or not. All specs have flaws and need nuance in those situations or you will either (for language specs) write code that doesn't work anywhere, or you will write a compiler that breaks code matching what the authors of the spec intended to allow.
> Right now it looks like you have an impression of UB that doesn't match reality.
I have an impression of UB that is not the convention, my post is criticising the convention. I am trying to give context and nuance where it is unfortunately lacking and now apparently quite relevant to lots of people. This can't change reality of current compilers, but maybe it can serve as a lesson in history.
I touched on this in the "it's not about optimizations" section. It's not the compiler is out to get you. It's that you told it to do something it cannot express.
It's like if you slipped in a word in French, and not being programmed for French, it misheard the word as a false friend in English. The compiler had no way to represent the French word in it's parse tree.
So no, it's not overly legalistic. Like if the compiler knows that this hardware can do unaligned memory access, but not atomic unaligned access, should it check for alignment in std::atomic<int> ptr but not in int ptr? Probably not, right?
I've (fruitlessly) had this discussion on HN before - super-aggressive optimisations for diminishing rewards are the norm in modern compilers.
In old C compilers, dereferencing NULL was reliable - the code that dereferenced NULL will always be emitted. Now, dereferencing NULL is not reliable, because the compiler may remove that and the program may fail in ways not anticipated (i.e, no access is attempted to memory location 0).
The compiler authors are on the standard, and they tend to push for more cases of UB being added rather than removing what UB there is right now (for exampel, by replacing with Implementation Defined Behaviour).
Unaligned pointer accesses are UB because different systems handle it differently. This 'should' be to allow the program to be portable by doing what the system normally does.
Instead it's been highjacked by compiler writers, with the logic that "X is UB, therefore can't happen, therefore can be optimised away."
Int c = abs(a) + abs(b); If (a > c) //overflow
Is UB because some system might do overflow differently. In practice every system wraps around.
That should be a valid check, instead it gets optimised away because it 'can't' happen.
C gives you enough rope to hang yourself. The compiler writers don't trust you to use the rope properly.
Good open source ones:
Frama-C
IKOS (from NASA)
Doesn't catch all of it.
When comparing signed and unsigned integers of same size the signed one will be converted to unsigned. In a reasonably configured project compiler will warn about it.
In case of integers smaller than int, promotion to int happens first.
In case of signed and unsigned integers of different size, the smaller one will be converted to bigger one.
C is horrible for trying to write a portable user-mode program in 2026. There are lots of better options.
C is great for writing low-level system code where you need to optimize performance down to the last cycle. It not abstracting away the hardware is super important for some use cases. A classic example is all of the platform-specific flavors of memcpy in the Linux kernel that are C/assembly hybrids hand-optimized for the SIMD pipelines of some CPUs.
C is a tool, Rust is a tool, Java is a tool, Python is a tool. Use the right tool for the job ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
https://nickyreinert.de/2023/2023-05-16-nerd-enzyklop%C3%A4d...
Shrug.
Sigh. s/sizeof(int)/_Alignof(int)/.
There are good reasons for an implementation to have sizeof(int) = _Alignof(int) and not a mere multiple of it, but if you are going to discuss subtle points and UB, just stick to the language guarantees.
> But let’s say you have a modern machine, where NULL is a pointer to address zero, and you actually have an object there.
You don't program in C on such a machine. Or maybe memory is virtualized, and it does not matter that your object lives at physical address zero, as long as you can map a non-zero virtual address to it.
> So how do you print an uid_t?
> It’s not rare for the denominator to come from untrusted input.It's not rare for the array index to come from untrusted input.
It's not rare for the supposedly valid UTF-8 string to come from untrusted input.
...
Why single out division? This problem affects every partially defined operation. In the case of division at least, everyone learned in school that thou shalt not divide by zero. Adding two untrusted integers and forgetting that signed overflow is UB, not defined as a modulo? Your average programmer is much less likely to see that coming.
Please. Convert your operands to wide enough types before the operation. Convert your results back to narrow enough types to compensate for integer promotion to wider types than you would have liked. Do that consistently, and you're good.Here:
I stopped reading there. If you have decades of experience in C/C++ and don't know what that means (and that it's arch specific), I'll assume those decades were mostly the same year over and over.
C/C++ are horrible languages, but they deserve better opponents than that.
What a contradiction. Strong evidence that standard-driven programming language development is much worse than implementation-driven development. Standards should be used for data types and external interfaces/protocols, not programming languages.
Write compiler which will define all this behavior. Usually people forget that UB exists only in standard. In practice it is always defined.
P.S. of course, while your hardware + firmware staying unchanged
P.S. not always defined in documentation - I mean defined in e.g. code
Far from being just "C with classes", modern C++ is very different than C. The language is huge and complex, for sure, but nobody is forced to use all of it.
No HN comment can possibly cover all the use cases of C++ but in general, unless you have a very good reason not to:
- eschewing boomer loops in favor of ranges
- using RAII with smart pointers
- move semantics
- using STL containers instead of raw arrays
- borrowing using spans and string views
These things go a long way towards, shall we say, "safe-ish" code without UB. It is not memory-safe enforced at the language level, like Rust, but the upshot is you never need to deal with the Rust community :^)
>After all, C/C++ is not a memory safe language.
Will fix it.
In the context of UB discussion, the arguments apply equally to C and C++.
How would you write that?
I entirely agree with all your points that C and C++ are completely different languages at this point. And yet I wanted to write this post about something that is true for both.
In the end, everything comes down to culture war.
However, that's obviously not the point? Ignoring the idea that people can/should just "git gud" and write perfect code in a language with lots of old traps, you can't control how everyone else writes their code, even on your own team once it gets big enough. And there will always be junior devs stumbling into the bear traps of c/c++ (even if the rest of the codebase is all modern c++). So no matter how many great new features get added to C++, until (never) they start taking away the bad ones, the danger inherent to writing in that language doesn't go away.
Also, safe != non-UB. TFA isn't so much about memory safety anyway.
As far as stdlib usage is concerned: that's just your opinion. The stdlib has a lot of footguns and terrible design decisions too, e.g. std::vector pulling in 20k lines of code into each compilation unit is simply bizarre.
Also:
- eschewing boomer loops in favor of ranges
Those "boomer loops" compile infinitely faster than the new ranges stuff (and they are arguably more readable too): https://aras-p.info/blog/2018/12/28/Modern-C-Lamentations/
- borrowing using spans and string views
Those are just as unsafe as raw pointers. It's not really "borrowing" when the referenced data can disappear while the "borrow" is active.
So Linus was right? But for a second reason too:
C++ is a horrible language. It’s made more horrible by the fact that a lot of substandard programmers use it, to the point where it’s much, much easier to generate total and utter crap with it. Quite frankly, even if the choice of C were to do _nothing_ but keep the C++ programmers out, that in itself would be a huge reason to use C.
That is, accepting C++ code from programmers who use C++ could be a SOX violation ;-)
(I hope casting fear is not UB)
I'm sure that's UB in C
In C++ just use <reinterpret_cast>
I say this as an experienced C developer.
the only people complaining about being able to do awful things are people that do awful things
- unless you are trying to sink it in mercury. then it floats
- unless it is an uranium bar
- go sink uranium bars in mercury yourself
Additionally, some (most?) UB is intentionally UB so that optimisers are free to do fancy tricks assuming that certain cases will never happen. Indeed, this is required for high performance. If they do happen, again, it can lead to unexpected behaviour.
PS: Most languages that don't have a specification declare their primary implementation to be specification-as-code. Rust is an example of that, and it does still have UB: the cases that the compiler assumes will not happen.
edit: for example I'm typing this into Safari which means probably every key press and event is going through JSC JIT compiled functions—which have, structurally and necessarily and intentionally, COMPLETELY undefined behavior according to the spec—and yet it miraculously works, perfectly, because the spec doesn't really matter
(e.g. just compiling with address sanitizer and using static analyzers catch pretty much all of the 'trivial' memory corruption issues).
Especially compared with modern languages with lambdas/exceptions/virtual functions and so on.
The one thing I see can make it harder is function pointers.
Everything else is a waste of time!
The problem lies with compilers, not with the language and its specification, or with the creators of the C programming language.
Anyone can write a compiler that transforms all undefined behaviors (UB) into defined behaviors (DB). And your compiler will be used by people, including me.
OTOH one could argue that creating truly portable programs is not possible since a programming language is a leaky abstraction - different machines have different endianness, different alignment requirements, different amounts of memory, etc. One could argue therefore that the language should not make any assumptions about the alignment restrictions, or lack of them, on the machine you are compiling for. Just document that "manually created" pointers may be unaligned and have machine-dependent behavior. A nice compiler could still generate a warning or error if you create a pointer that doesn't meet the alignment requirements of the target you are compiling for.
C/C++'s provision of type casts reflects that the language has made the design decision to not restrict the user, and let them step outside the bounds of any guarantees the language provides if they want to. Unions are also a form of type cast.
completely agree!
However, C has since day one chosen to define a leaky abstraction by putting efficiency above all else and having the language/implementation adapt to the hardware rather than vice versa (having the implementation hide hardware differences to implement some language-defined standard). The most obvious case of this is the size of the integer types short, int, and long, where the standard only says that "short <= int <= long" and specifies minimum value ranges that each type must be able to hold. The spec basically says that ints must be at least 16-bit, while on most targets they are in fact going to be 32-bit. Of course you can use int32_t etc for better portability, but nonetheless the language provides this "int" type whose size and endianness are unspecified.
C's unions could also be considered as providing a leaky abstraction, since it exposes differences between implementations - endianness, alignment/packing.
Then you get to things like size of address space, pointer sizes and representations, even amount of memory that a program may be able to allocate.
The only way a language could totally abstract away the underling hardware would be to base it on some lowest common denominator of hardware (or virtual machines) that it is willing to support, which would be totally impractical. The alternative is that you just accept the leaky abstraction and say that many things are implementation defined, not language defined.
Any time you need to use a type cast to assign an int pointer, other than casting the output of malloc, then you potentially have a unaligned pointer, although only the compiler, knowing the alignment requirements of the target, would know if that is creating an invalid pointer or not.
* The C/C++ language (standard library) spec says that malloc must return memory that is aligned to meet the (target) requirements of all built in types, which is obviously a bit wasteful, as well not helpful for things like SIMD types that may be supported by libraries rather than built-in.
I like the C programming language. To be honest, I regret not having the knowledge (low skills) to write my own compiler, or at least a standard library. I have some rough sketches on paper of what it should look like, but I can't implement it.